Meet the Other Phone. A phone that grows with your child.

Meet the Other Phone.
A phone that grows with your child.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Incensed by a historical documentary on women

29 replies

Pinky222 · 13/04/2018 10:45

Firstly I'm not religious and know only the basics of Christianity so apologies for my hitherto ignorance . Watched Jesus Female Disciples disciples Channel 4. Two brilliant academic women uncovering the staggering erosion of women from history. How ancient drawings show women as bishops and how women were far more than the depicted handmaidens and prostitutes but respected disciples working equally alongside men. If you watch it, the scene in St Peters Square was the peak for me. It is terrifying how male power has been able to simply erase women.

OP posts:
Melamin · 13/04/2018 10:50

The priesthood being male and celebate was a later addition from what I have learned (no expert either but interested).

Thanksforthatamazingpost · 13/04/2018 10:55

I think the celibacy thing was about 10th century?

AnitaLovesVictor · 13/04/2018 10:56

Yes I agree. When my DD did a project on Ada Lovelace for school, I discovered that her work had been erased from history, and was only uncovered in the 1950s. It makes you wonder how many other women's work has never been rediscovered.

I'll look up that C4 programme - thanks.

StrangeOddment · 13/04/2018 11:06

Jesus has a group of 12 men in the New Testament, but also named as disciples (and benefactors) are a fair number of women. Including a lot of Marys, as Mary was apparently the female equivalent of Dave back in the day. Mary the mother of Jesus, Mary the mother of James, Mary of Magdala/the Magdalen/Magdalene. Also a Susanna, I think.

The book of Romans is a letter to the church in Rome and includes 'Greet Phoebe, a deacon of the church in Cenchreae' most likely because she is the person carrying the letter to them.
There's also Prisca/Priscilla in Romans 16, as well as Junia who along with Andronicus is 'outstanding among the apostles'.

Oh, and Lydia of Thyatira, who is a businesswoman, hears the Gospel, gets herself baptised and sets up a church in her household. She's in...the Book of Acts and also the letter to the Philippians I think. She's the first named convert to Christianity in Europe.

There are more, but that's all I've got off the top of my head right now!

There had to be male and female deacons because one of the jobs of deacons was to baptise new converts. Which at the time often had the new converts immersed in water while buck naked. Which obviously you don't really want to be doing with the opposite sex around.

ReappearingWoman · 13/04/2018 11:16

There was a great history/documentary series a couple of years ago that documented exactly this, the erasure of women/their achievements from history. Can't for the life of me remember the name of it but it was a great look through the ages, at different cultures/countries/empires & showing the evolution of how women were excluded from public life/policy etc. It was BBC who broadcast it.

I'll check this out too, this stuff fascinates (and infuriates!) me.

DamnDeDoubtanceIsSpartacus · 13/04/2018 11:21

It's infuriating isn't it, women scrubbed from history because it doesn't meet the patriarchal narrative. Good job things are changing now...

GoodyMog · 13/04/2018 11:23

I always wonder how many amazing, world changing women we just don't know about.

ReappearingWoman Was it Ascent of Woman? That was an excellent series

ErrolTheDragon · 13/04/2018 11:25

There are more, but that's all I've got off the top of my head right now!
Dorcas (aka Tabitha)

UpstartCrow · 13/04/2018 12:01

Up until very recently, there were considered to be no historical women artists.

HerFemaleness · 13/04/2018 12:44

Did the documentary talk about Junia, the first female apostle and an outstanding one at that?

In the 3rd of 4th century, Biblical texts were altered to change the female Junia in to the male Junias, on the grounds that it was impossible for a woman to be an apostle therefore that particular passage in the Bible (Romans 16:7) must be referring to a man.

A few years ago this was corrected in many Bible translations and reverted back to the female Junia. Massive outcry from certain sections of Christiandom. They've settled down a bit with that but have now decided that Junia was not an outstanding apostle but was simply thought of as outstanding by the apostles.

Romans 16:7

Andronicus and Junia, my fellow Jews who have been in prison with me. They are outstanding among the apostles, and they were in Christ before I.

FeministBadger · 13/04/2018 12:58

Once you start seeing it, it's everywhere.

Science and maths where women's work was outright stolen from them, literature where women had to hide under men's pseudonyms or as anonymous, women doing the back breaking work of setting up schools and charitable institutions but ignored because technically their husbands owned all the money that funded it.

It's still going on today to a certain extent as well - how much credit does Mo Mowlam get for the Good Friday agreement due to Tony Blair and Bill Clinton waltzing in at the last minute?

Pinky222 · 13/04/2018 13:47

I don't think women can ever be complacent. I lived through the seventies which I found brutal for women, particularly working class women. I know we have progressed since those days of having zero say over our lives, but it seems all so fragile to me right now.

OP posts:
ReappearingWoman · 13/04/2018 13:48

@GoodyMog yes that's the one - it was excellent & really eye opening. Fantastic series.

Pinky222 · 13/04/2018 14:05

@Herfemaleness....No, I don't recall them mentioning her. What I also found interesting were the references in ancient texts of the word for two by two as in, male and female in reference to the disciples. Clearly, the information was always there to be translated, interpreted into teachings but was simply squashed. I certainly don't recall in my obligatory Sunday School lessons that women played any equal role. I grew up believing I should be a handmaiden too...

OP posts:
LangCleg · 13/04/2018 14:07

Ascent of Woman was a fab series. It is on YouTube if anyone wants to watch. Episode one here:

TheGoldenBough · 13/04/2018 16:56

Yes, I had a lecturer at university who was very keen on this sort of thing.

His voice was the first I heard really challenging the patriarchal narrative. He was also very keen on talking about women who had been erased from his-story in this way.

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 13/04/2018 17:11

Not to mention attempts to reclassify some outstanding men and women who transcended gender roles as transgender, which takes away a lot of strong role models for younger people, especially those who are just starting to realise they might be gay.

4thwavenow.com/2016/10/31/transing-the-dead-the-erasure-of-gender-defiant-role-models-from-history/

Thanksforthatamazingpost · 13/04/2018 17:11

Was it this one?

CharlieParley · 13/04/2018 18:09

This is a bit daft while you're all talking totally worthy female endeavours, but my lecturer at university, when we were discussing Romeo and Juliet posited that people in the Middle Ages didn't love as we do today, because they basically just felt sexual attraction (the men) or were obedient (the women).

As a woman madly in love this struck me as completely unlikely. Love was this thing that had hit me over the head, I had had no choice in the matter, and there wasn't anything modern about it. It was embarrassingly feral. And when it ended it (almost) broke me.

So I went looking for evidence to the contrary and found these recorded stories of historical couples and all these women I'd never heard of who at their time were very well known indeed. Loads of women. Just the whole world full of women doing amazing things and stupid things motivated by love.

Why don't we know about them?

LangCleg · 13/04/2018 18:43

Another good BBC documentary on YouTube (Medieval Lives Birth, Marriage, Death Episode 2: A Good Marriage) - has lots from the Paston letters and loads of stuff about love affairs and determined women you would like, CharlieParley!

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 13/04/2018 18:44

Your lecturer obviously wasn't familiar with Sappho! She was a female poet born approx 630 BC, died approx 570 BC, so a good guess for this is that it was composed around 600 BC. She lived on the Greek island of Lesbos. Yes, this is where the term Lesbian came from - male and female homosexuality were perfectly normal and usual in Ancient Greece. Probably used as a way to help ensure that when a woman became pregnant her husband could be sure the baby was his. Both men and women had very intense emotional and sexual relationships with friends of the same sex, because men and women were kept strictly apart outside the home and marriage was arranged, but you could associate freely with people of your own sex.

We know a lot more about Sappho in the last few decades because papyri discovered in Egypt, perfectly preserved in the hot dry conditions in the desert, have turned out to have fragments of her poetry written on them. Prior to that, we just had a few fragments preserved since ancient times (same goes for many male poets, to be fair).

However, this lyric poem has been known continuously for the last 2600 years, as it is such a stunning evocation of what it's like to be in love. (Lyric poem no. 31).

"That man seems to me to be equal to the gods
who is sitting opposite you
and hears you nearby
speaking sweetly

and laughing delightfully, which indeed
makes my heart flutter in my breast;
for when I look at you even for a short time,
it is no longer possible for me to speak

but it is as if my tongue is broken
and immediately a subtle fire has run over my skin,
I cannot see anything with my eyes,
and my ears are buzzing

a cold sweat comes over me, trembling
seizes me all over, I am paler
than grass, and I seem nearly
to have died.

but everything must be dared/endured, since (?even a poor man) ..."

Ereshkigal · 13/04/2018 18:53

Oh thank you Lang! I have only seen the Death one. I am a huge medieval history nerd.

CharlieParley · 13/04/2018 20:17

Gasp0de thank you that's fascinating. I love learning all this stuff. Not sure to this day if my lecturer wanted to provoke us or if he really believed that.

Milvusmilvus · 13/04/2018 20:18

Ascent of woman (written by Amanda foreman) was a four part series, I think it might be on NF.
It takes the viewer on a journey through the ages to the present day. The bit I remember was about the the only female Chinese empress whose commemorate tombstone had nothing inscribed on it all. Unlike the other male emperors!
Highly recommended. Very insightful.

Hahaha
I could have sworn it was called the 'descent' of woman. Confused Grin

thebewilderness · 14/04/2018 01:07

Dale Spender wrote a book called Women of Ideas and What Men Have Done to Them that starts with Aphra Behn.
More women have have been brought to light since she published.
They still do not teach about women in schools except as a project from time to time. Human history is so poorly integrated that we do our children a terrible disservice.

Swipe left for the next trending thread