I am right in thinking the gender pay gap is actually about sex?

[ItsAllGoingToBeFine]

A bank has published their gender pay gap stats, but they state they are measuring the difference between those identifying as men and those identifying as women. Someone on this thread

community.monzo.com/t/monzos-gender-pay-gap/36145

has pointed out that this is not actually measuring the gender pay gap, bit are they right? (I think they are) Ive had a quick look and it doesn't seem immediately obvious if the gender pay gap is about measuring sex or gender differences - I am assuming this is because most orgs have not caught up with the difference? I am almost tempted to weigh in (anonymously) on the thread, bit would want to be sure of my facts first.

Usually, yes - the gender pay gap is sex based, but people have an issue about saying the word sex (see also: sex reveal parties for babies not being called that).

I think gender comes into it because some of the reasons for women being paid less are often social reasons - female socialisation making us typically less likely to take risks/overstate their experience in the way men often do/female dominated sectors e.g. care based roles attracting lower salaries, though you could argue that it's the female biology at the root of that. There are also the purely sex based reasons - women being held back because of pregnancy etc.

You are right and whoever Rosie is has explained the problem beautifully. If you feel comfortable commenting, I think it'd be a good thing. Especially since earlier in the thread Monzo people are desperately trying to explain they pay the same for the same roles when the pay gap between the sexes is about so much more than equal pay for equal work.

I've wussed out of posting . I lurk on those forums (it's my bank) and I suspect that thread may get nasty as they usually do.

I am secretly cheering for Rosie though whoever she is (sounds like she is a MNer )

Bollocks. It appears that Rosie is wrong:

^It is important for employers to be sensitive to how an employee chooses to self-
identify in terms of their gender. The regulations do not define the terms ‘male’
and ‘female’ and the requirement to report gender pay should not result in
employees being singled out and questioned about their gender.
 As a starting point, most employers should be able to base reports on the
gender identification the employee has provided for HR/payroll, if such records
are regularly updated.
 Where this information is not available or may be unreliable, employers should
establish a method which enables all employees to confirm or update their
gender. This can be handled early and proactively when informing employees
that gender pay reporting is taking place. It can be done by inviting employees
to check their recorded gender, and update it if required. A free acas template
communication is available at www.acas.org.uk/genderpay.
 In cases where the employee does not self-identify as either gender, an
employer may omit the individual from the calculations.^

From ACAS
www.acas.org.uk/media/pdf/m/4/Managing_gender_pay_reporting_04_12_17.pdf (triggers download)

Well, whoever answered her had this to say:

Rosie: The root cause of the “gender” pay gap is female biology.

Monzo answer: I think that’s an assumption that’s not correct.

Any inequality faced by women is faced by all women and we need to resolve that. An inclusive work place where every person has the opportunity to perform to the best of their ability and have the opportunity to succeed is the goal.
-------------

I'd love to see just one example of a trans identified male suffering pregnancy discrimination, or for breastfeeding or any of the other womany stuff that we are expected to do that men aren't.

Whoever that Monzo person is also has never read the least little bit about the research on the pay gap. Coz the research actually shows it's based on women being oppressed for their biology.

Hmm, the trouble with that is that the pay gap could be shown as narrowing by virtue of people transitioning (higher paid men transitioning)

Hmm, the trouble with that is that the pay gap could be shown as narrowing by virtue of people transitionin

Transwomen also face a pay gap - and often don't show in pay gaps as trans people face discrimination when applying for jobs. Being trans also comes with its own shit, self belief systems etc that affect you at work.

Yes - there are probably well paid people transitioning - and there are also transwomen who have had a lot of issues in their life that have affected their work prospects.

They have a gender identity called "other". That seems rather "othering".

yet can't help thinking that there'll be a measurable difference between a post-op M2F transsexual who has transitioned early, before having a career or who had to take a career break due to all the medical stuff and a non-med, non-op crossdresser who comes out as trans in his mid 50s at the height of his career. There will be far more of the latter, surely? And they'll be higher paid, too.

There will be far more of the latter, surely? And they'll be higher paid, too

I suppose it depends on how many people you think will come out like this.

I’m sure that’s true yet.

I have seen the video of the makeup artist describing the loss of respect and status he experienced after he (he uses “he” of himself) feminised his appearance.

All the more reason to keep the concepts distinct?

You could then gather data for transitioning people plotting the difference in career trajectory between those who transition and those who don’t.

We ran the numbers recently, DH and me, for the company he works for. I was quite adamant it'd make a big difference if even a few ppl at high level were crossdressers self-id'd as women, but the numbers suggest it would probably be single digits because the overall difference btw the pay of men and women and the number of women at low level vs men at high level are both big enough.

But as long as we measure improvements in single digits, this may still prevent us from getting an accurate picture. Why can't we collect the data according to birth sex and gender? Or is that impossible now?

I wonder what happens to transmen and the effect on pay gaps when they transition?

Absolutely yet. So much work to be done.

Take a graduation year’s worth of male-born students. Measure where they are in 10 years. Then compare the earnings as between trans and not trans.

Do the same with female born graduation year.

We could learn so much.

May I butt in? I found this survey when I was doing some research. I work in equal pay so was interested to see if there was any penalty or gain in line with sex discrimination. Although it is impossible to assign cause completely as people may well change careers as part of the life change they make. This is based on public reported data for earnings.

ftp.iza.org/dp9077.pdf

I should have said its in Holland, not here.

Ooh, that is very interesting Mouthtrousersafrocknowandthen

I wish they'd compared transsexuals earnings to other men and women as well, but this comparison is fascinating. Thanks for linking to it!

I looks like M2F keep earning more than women and F2M earnings do rise but the authors say not statistically significant.

Yet is right though that the earnings of M2Fs tend to fall and how they fall and then rise again actually seems to reflect that "Being trans also comes with its own shit, self belief systems etc that affect you at work." as Yet said

Fascinating.

A transgender surgeon in an elite tertiary hospital would do fine after transitioning either way.

A salesperson would suffer far more.

From the conclusion

Two consistent earnings findings emerge from the empirical analysis on transsexuals. First, we find that men who become women experience a significant fall in labor earnings after the gender transition. Second, we find that the labor earnings of women who become men hardly change. If there is any change, we find that women who become men earn somewhat more after the gender transition.

The study only includes post-op transsexuals.

Yes, its pre umbrella data I think, so transsexuals. Love the formulas, but I'm a formula nerd!

I sent it to Miranda who is a maths hobbyist/genius. I will ask for Miranda's learned opinion.

That's me being a hater, caring about the pay penalty. Wondering if we should ask for more analysis. I do care!

They do use a control group -

In addition, we draw a one percent sample from the Dutch population, which allows us to compare the earnings of transsexual workers to the earnings of other women and men.

People do maths as a hobby?

Yes, sadly. I started a business years ago but realised I was only interested in the P&L, balance sheet and and cash flow analysis.

I read annual reports and the amount spent on employee compensation and report to boards on the ratios. They come up with obfuscating metrics so it's really good fun to try to find a common basis.

I'm sad. I need to get out more.

For one the "gender pay gap" is largest for mothers, or even women simply being expected/suspected of possibly becoming mothers.

That is a pretty strong indication it is about sex, isn't it?

The only reason the whole thing is called gender pay gap anyway, is that it was from a time when gender and sex were still seen as the same. And sex pay gap has a bit off an odd ring to it anyway.