"It is illegal to ask to see a GRC"

[SarahAr]

I often seen this in messages on MN. Is this correct? Does anyone have a statutory or case law reference.

It is certainly good practice not to ask anyone their legal gender unless you absolutely need to know. It is also good practice to ask for a birth certificate, not a GRC. That way you don't have embarrassing issues of accidentally asking a natal woman for a GRC because you think she looks trans.

But is it actually illegal to ask to see a GRC?

is this a rhetorical question? I've noted from your previous posts that you are very well informed....

R0wantrees Not rhetorical. I don't know of anything that would make it illegal, but could easily be a case or part of a statute I have missed.

Having had a quick hunt around online, I have got the impression that it wouldn't be illegal as such to ask to see a grc, but there would be absolutely no onus on the holder to comply and generally speaking it would be viewed as an inappropriate (potentially discriminatory?) thing to do.

If you saw a grc and mentioned it to anyone else, or recorded that you had seen it, that would be a breach of data protection.

Caveat: I am not a lawyer

Equality Act 2010 Code of Practice
2.27 Transsexual people should not be routinely asked to produce their Gender Recognition Certificate as evidence of their legal gender. Such a request would compromise a transsexual person’s right to privacy. If a service provider requires proof of a person’s legal gender, then their (new) birth certificate should be sufficient confirmation.

It doesn't actually say it's illegal to ask for it, though.

As Tallulah said, there is also this from the Gender Recognition Act 2004
22 Prohibition on disclosure of information
(1) It is an offence for a person who has acquired protected information in an official capacity to disclose the information to any other person.

The fact that so much of this is shrouded in secrecy is one of the things that really bothers me. The assumption that if a man still has a penis, but is legally a woman, it is of no consequence to anyone else.

This question also interests me.
In the case of a DBS application, you have to give any previous names (eg maiden name). When I applied, I had to show passport as photo id. I didnt have to prove my previous surname. If you were previously know as a different name and sex, what id do you have to show, if any? I no longer help at school, so theres no one to ask who will be up to date on this.

Obviously it is important. Theoretically Liam Huntly could get another job in a school as 'Lianne' (or whatever hes calling himself) and so his previous name would need to be known too. If he didnt have to prove a previous name, couldnt he just lie? Does anyone know what DBS looks at?

serfandterf101 Don't worry, they've got a system in place so that when doing DBS checks the trans person can leave their old name off the form which they hand back to their employer but contact the DBS to let them know they need to check against the old name too. This seems quite sensible.
uktrans.info/attachments/article/180/DBS-check-for-transgender-persons.pdf

I imagine DBS must have systems in place to deal with situations where people fail to disclose their old names, as otherwise any criminal could just change their name by deed poll and live a new life.

Thanks speedy that makes sense. Certainly wouldnt want anyone missing out on a fulfilling job because they were worried about gossip and leaks.

I was never told it was illegal to ask to see my GRC which I have had for 14 years. I have never needed to show it but would have done so if asked.

However, I have needed to show my birth certificate as proof of age was needed.

There are quite rigorous checks in place. In terms of tax forms and pensions and benefits etc there is a special department in Newcastle that deals with trans people with a GRC.

Very unimaginatively it is called the GR team (Gender Recognition) and this is hand written on their envelopes. Sometimes with warnings not to open. So anybody working there will know that letters to and from there are from trans people without asking.

There is one poor guy working there and I have had to speak to him a few times over the past 5 years and with the extra workload nowadays and various departments shunting things to him when they are not his remit but they are scared of making a mistake with trans people I am surprised he has not had a nervous breakdown.

Passports had their gender markers altered even before the GRA came in. Mine had F on it as soon as these were introduced in the 1990s. As I transitioned in the 1970s I have not really had problems as all the paperwork was sorted years ago.

When I renewed my passport recently I did not have to send a GRC as it was a renewal and nothing had changed but the option to do that was there and there is a separate section of the application form instructions for transgender people applying for the first time.

Is there a feminist angle to your question, SarahR?

Thanks for your input Jaycee. Really interesting to hear how other govt depts work!

I imagine DBS must have systems in place to deal with situations where people fail to disclose their old names, as otherwise any criminal could just change their name by deed poll and live a new life.

I thought the problem with Ian Huntly was that he gave a new name and there were no systems in place either to check his other names and that was why he passed the DBS checks and was able to get the job in the school, despite his history of being a serial rapist of underage girls.

So that doesn't fill me with confidence if the DBS are relying on people giving all previous names.

I thought the problem with Ian Huntly was that he gave a new name and there were no systems in place either to check his other names and that was why he passed the DBS checks and was able to get the job in the school, despite his history of being a serial rapist of underage girls.

Apparently according to this www.theguardian.com/uk/2003/dec/17/soham.ukcrime2
there were 2 issues with Huntley:
A) the vetting officer knew they should have checked against both his names (Nixon and Huntley) but failed to do so, due to human error; and
B) there are issues about how crimes which are not charged are recorded, which are an issue whether someone has changed their name or not.

So human error is always an issue but I don't see it being a particular trans issue. If someone just wants to try and make things as difficult as possible they could just change their name via deed poll and hope that the vetting officer makes a mistake.

@LangCleg. The feminist angle is that I see a lot of posts on MN saying it is illegal even to ask for a GRC. The implication is that it is difficult practically or legally to block predatory men or alternatively transwomen at the start of their transition from women's spaces.

But AFAIK birth certificates or if needed GRC's can be asked for. And there are exceptions to the Equality Act, narrow but nonetheless there, that can be used if appropriate.

On the question of name changes, the birth certificate that can be issued to someone with a GRC - though only a couple of thousand have been - is a copy for use as proof of ID in day to day situations.

But the original birth certificate is not altered or removed from record. It will not be released to anyone on request unless there are specific needs - terrorism, police investigation etc. But in circumstances such as a prisoner changing name it ought to be easy to do to find all records regardless.

Prison service instructions say Staff must not ask to see a GRC but can request sight of a birth certificate. Where an offender does offer a GRC as form of evidence and identity, they must be treated in the gender identified on the certificate. (from here, scroll down to download the word doc - 17/2016 The Care and Management of Transgender Offenders. Para 4.1)

The government guidance for GRC applicants has this to say:

7.3 New Birth, Marriage and Civil Partnership Certificates

• If your birth has a UK birth entry on receipt of a full GRC, the relevant Registrar General will send you a draft of the information to be recorded in the Gender Recognition Register (GRR) to clarify what the entry will look like and to resolve any queries before the registration goes ahead. The draft will contain all the details about date and place of birth and parentage that are included in your original birth record

• In the case of an adopted person, the draft will show the adoptive parents rather than the birth parents unless the adoption order has been quashed.

• If your birth was registered in England and Wales or Scotland, the format of your certificate will match that of your original birth certificate, other than it will show your new name and acquired gender.

• On receipt of your confirmation that the draft contains the correct information, the Registrar General will create a new record in the GRR. Your current contact details will not be recorded in the register. (The purpose of a GRR is simply to create a new record from which the Registrar General may produce a new birth certificate. It is not a record of all known transsexual people, nor will it be ever be used as such. The register does not record current address details or any other information which could be used to locate a transsexual person. The Register is held in the same way as the other central registers maintained by the Registrar General, such as those for adopted children and those for whom the courts have issued a parental order, and is not be open for public scrutiny.)

• A free short birth certificate will be sent to you by post together with any additional full birth certificates you have purchased. Information about purchasing a new birth certificate will be sent to you with the draft entry.

I would be amazed if there were many people who went throught the whole GRC process and then decided not to bother getting the new birth certificate when the process is pretty much automatic.

The feminist angle is that I see a lot of posts on MN saying it is illegal even to ask for a GRC. The implication is that it is difficult practically or legally to block predatory men or alternatively transwomen at the start of their transition from women's spaces.

Gotcha. Thanks. However, I think you are conflating two things, aren't you?

The "illegal to ask for a GRC" conversation arose over the Labour AWS issue. To whit: if only male-born GRC holders are eligible in law, how can this be ascertained if it is not lawful to ask for a GRC? Answer: ask for a birth certificate from everyone on an AWS, including born females.

On toilets and changing rooms, the feminist conversation is about self-ID meaning that women will be unable to challenge any males in their spaces, since they would simply be able to claim a trans identity with nobody able to contradict that. On this issue, it is transactivists who claim this means feminists are suggesting documentation should be required to enter women's spaces such as toilets. Feminists aren't doing that - it is clearly ridiculous and unworkable - feminists are saying that they don't want intact males in their spaces regardless of trans identities.

It seems to me that your OP is somewhat of a straw man in that it misrepresents what women are saying here by conflating two different concerns: a) how to maintain integrity of eligibility to women only programmes/jobs etc to women and GRC holders, b) protecting the integrity of single sex spaces to ensure women's safety. The GRC issue applies only to a).

OldCrone - It doesn't actually say it's illegal to ask for it, though.

I was just looking at that. It's statutory code. It's not legally binding but it must be taken into account in any court case or tribunal. More info here.

So it's pretty much illegal to ask for a GRC but anyone with a GRC will almost certainly have a new birth certificate anyway.

What I'm not sure about is how this works with the sex based exceptions in the EA. For example if you're trying to hire only natal women to be rape counsellors in your women's org (which is legal), what do you do if a TW with a new birth certificate applies?

What I'm not sure about is how this works with the sex based exceptions in the EA. For example if you're trying to hire only natal women to be rape counsellors in your women's org (which is legal), what do you do if a TW with a new birth certificate applies?

This needs clarifying - I'm assuming the Labour AWS crowdfunder has the potential to go some way to achieving this?

Thanks for drilling down into the detail, Pencils. These things are important to thrash out.

It's frustrating for me when the "other side" reduces everything to toilets.

It appears quite clear that it is considered discriminatory in violation of the EA to ask for anything more than ID.

This needs clarifying - I'm assuming the Labour AWS crowdfunder has the potential to go some way to achieving this?

No, that exception works differently. AWS are open to anyone whose legal sex is female - i.e. women + TW with a grc/new birth certificate.

Pencils I don't know how many of those with a GRC have a new birth certificate but it is not all of them surprisingly. It was under 1000 not that long ago and whilst it is several thousand now I believe it is still well under the total GRCs issued.

I do not understand why. Perhaps some just do not realise that you can.

The December 2014 figures for those with Gender Recognition Certificates who had a new birth certificate came to 3779 in total - 3485 from England and Wales, 239 from Scotland and 55 from Northern Ireland.

That is around two thirds or so of the total GRCs I think.

Of these 2866 were given a new female assignment and 913 a new male one.

Scotland has the highest percentage of trans men with a new assigned birth certificate at 36% to 64 % female assigned. The other countries are around 25% to 75%.

Where are those figures from Jaycee?

I googled and got them via

uktrans.info/grc-stats

Pencils
What I'm not sure about is how this works with the sex based exceptions in the EA. For example if you're trying to hire only natal women to be rape counsellors in your women's org (which is legal), what do you do if a TW with a new birth certificate applies?

The transgender status of the applicant should be disclosed through a DBS check. So as long as that was done properly, the employer/service provider should have the relevant information to exclude a transwoman in your example.

If the exceptions are written into the legislation, I would hope there would be a way to apply them.