Huge new study of trans people released.

[crispbuttyfan]

thinkprogress.org/what-we-know-transgender-surgery-72ae4737545a/

1. The scholarly literature makes clear that gender transition is effective in treating gender dysphoria and can significantly improve the well-being of transgender individuals.

1. Among the positive outcomes of gender transition and related medical treatments for transgender individuals are improved quality of life, greater relationship satisfaction, higher self-esteem and confidence, and reductions in anxiety, depression, suicidality, and substance use.

1. The positive impact of gender transition on transgender well-being has grown considerably in recent years, as both surgical techniques and social support have improved.

1. Regrets following gender transition are extremely rare and have become even rarer as both surgical techniques and social support have improved. Pooling data from numerous studies demonstrates a regret rate ranging from .3 percent to 3.8 percent. Regrets are most likely to result from a lack of social support after transition or poor surgical outcomes using older techniques.

1. Factors that are predictive of success in the treatment of gender dysphoria include adequate preparation and mental health support prior to treatment, proper follow-up care from knowledgeable providers, consistent family and social support, and high-quality surgical outcomes (when surgery is involved).

1. Transgender individuals, particularly those who cannot access treatment for gender dysphoria or who encounter unsupportive social environments, are more likely than the general population to experience health challenges such as depression, anxiety, suicidality and minority stress. While gender transition can mitigate these challenges, the health and well-being of transgender people can be harmed by stigmatizing and discriminatory treatment.

1. An inherent limitation in the field of transgender health research is that it is difficult to conduct prospective studies or randomized control trials of treatments for gender dysphoria because of the individualized nature of treatment, the varying and unequal circumstances of population members, the small size of the known transgender population, and the ethical issues involved in withholding an effective treatment from those who need it.

1. Transgender outcomes research is still evolving and has been limited by the historical stigma against conducting research in this field. More research is needed to adequately characterize and address the needs of the transgender population.

Just as you dismiss anything from sources you do not trust, Crispy, so do I dismiss anything fro Think Progress. Their racism and misogyny as well as their pro transitioning at any cost is undeniable.

AngryAttackKittens: It occurred to me though that what's actually being argued is that female compliance with trans people's sense of their own "gender" and what they'd like to happen based on that is being framed as essential to trans people's mental health, and that this is a very core part of the conflict, the question of whether or not women should be (socially, legally) required to comply on that basis.

Very well put. That is the nub of it, isn’t it? This emotional blackmail and bullying that says women and girls have to put the needs and feelings of a subset of males ahead of our own. We just know that’s why this study has been posted here, with that agenda in mind. Otherwise, what on earth does it have to do with FWR?

Something I found quite sinister in those summaries posted upthread (thank you SimonBridges) is the way the outcomes are measured as of different subsets of the same cohort - eg
Transwomen have diminished mental health-related quality of life compared with the general female population.
Twenty two transgender women and 22 matched cisgender women completed a demographic questionnaire

The way they’re approaching these “studies”, comparing TIMs with women rather than with men, as well as the language used, shows they subscribe to TRA ideology to begin with. They start from the presumption that TIMs are a subset of females, not males; that seems a pretty clear bias to me.

And as a pp said, the line between male and female, sex and gender, becomes so blurred in this kind of writing that it’s hard to understand who they’re actually referring to when they talk about “male transsexuals” and “female transsexuals”. Language loses more and more of its meaning and it becomes ever harder to argue a point with any clarity.

The report you cite OP is reassuring for people whose lives have been improved by surgical intervention for their transition.

Has any account been taken of people who undergo medical intervention and then regret it, as these people would no longer define themselves as transgender so would not appear in the studies?

The NHS analysis for the evidence base to support medical intervention is far more cautious, and mixed, to say the least:

www.engage.england.nhs.uk/consultation/specialised-services-consultation/user_uploads/gendr-ident-policy.pdf

"The evidence base for treatment of gender dysphoria is largely comprised of low- graded (with respect to “level of evidence” scoring systems) papers"

The studies are from the 1990's to about 2006. This does not therefore include the current cohort of teenage/young adult girls now undergoing transition (since we know in the past the majority of transitioners were MtF).

"Mortality from suicides seems to be high despite treatment"

"Overall, there is only limited evidence to demonstrate the efficacy of hormonal therapy or gender reassignment surgery with regard to long-term complications or physical functional status"

"One troubling report (Newfield et al., 2006) documented lower scores on quality of life (measured with the SF-36) for FtM patients than for the general population"

"With respect outcome data for genital reconstructive surgery, the available data is limited; almost all of the outcome studies in this area have been retrospective"

"Quality of life scores for transsexual patients were the same or better than those of control patients for some subscales (emotions, sleep, incontinence, symptom severity, and role limitation), but worse in other domains (general health, physical limitation, and personal limitation). "

People dealing either themselves with gender dysphoria; or their family members really need cold hard facts, not marketing.

We just know that’s why this study has been posted here, with that agenda in mind. Otherwise, what on earth does it have to do with FWR

To be fair, I suppose, many of us here are concerned about the detrimental effect of transing children - that's how I arrived here - so the post is relevant in that context (but the study is still bollocks).

The inability, or unwillingness, to distinguish between something parading as personal freedom for adults to do what they like against the right of women and children to not be abused is the heart of the issue here.

I sometimes wonder how 1% of the population get funded for all this "research". Where does all that money come from? Who benefits commercially from people transitioning? Why aren't women's and children's rights centred in the discussion or even referenced? It's as though some prefer to ignore the real issues that this forum is here for.

#TGLWGH

crisp - thanks for this thread, but can we please restrict discussion of trans issues to those areas where there is an overlap with feminist issues? This is a feminist board.

Please don't keep trying to drag me personally me into your ludicrous word games and thought exercises referencing your cheery picked conclusions, that you clearly do not even understand. Thanks.
It would be a great relief to all of us if you would take your own advice.

Somethingweird
Most studies pre 2013 are invalid, the diagnostic criteria that we currently have has only been relevant since then.

Thats the whole point of studies, treatment and data protocols improve, you cited a study from 2006 that had a totally different understanding of Gender dysphoria.

The study linked in the first post is an accumalation of relevant studies, and overall conclusions, I really don't see the point in cherry picking individual studies.

However the whole detransition myth is just that.

An australian court case towards the tail end of last year, stated of those treated for either gender dysphoria AND pre 2013 when the diagnosis metric was even weaker, 96% did not desist.

FTM transitioners have so far NOT bucked this trend, and asserting they will is not science, it is projection.

Mortality untreated is around ~40% in various studies averaged out, post treatment it is 4%, whilst that is still very significantly higher compared to the average population, it demonstrates an exceptional success rate of treatment.
And as many studies have also concluded despite dropping tenfold, raised suicide stats are a direct result of stigmatisation, discrimination, and harm caused by the wider publics treatment of trans people.

Correction *mortality---suicide ideation

crisp - thanks for this thread, but can we please restrict discussion of trans issues to those areas where there is an overlap with feminist issues? This is a feminist board.

This.

crispybuttyfan I have a trans person in the family going through the process, so yeah, I know how this works.

As an adult, in order to be referred to an endocrinologist one first has to see one's GP. Hence I said:

These thirtythousand people have gone to see their GP.

And if, as you say, 5 out of 10 GPs aren't prescribing the hormones, well, hello there, by some weird coincidence that also means that 5 out of 10 GPs ARE prescribing hormones.

The exact process actually depends on where you live. Here in Scotland a GP won't prescribe you any hormones at all normally. Not because they object, but because we have NHS Scotland Gender Identity Clinics which oversee the treatment process.

And I don't understand what your problem is with patients needing to see an endocrinologist. In the other thread you were telling us they are the only real experts in this area. Cross-sex hormones lead to irreversible changes. Doctors are legally obliged to ensure no harm comes to their patients through their action or inaction.

So, to recap, anyone who wishes to medically transition starts the actual medical process with hormones which are not usually given out without therapy - that is how it works, which is why I said:

The first step for many is therapy and hormones - if that is what they wish.

And as this was a discussion around your claim that close to half a million people want to have surgery, this is why it matters that so far only 30,000 people in the UK have visited their doctor about their gender dysphoria at all. And the actual medical treatment process of transitioning starts with hormones, not surgery, as I said.

And transgender vs transsexual - well, that's your fault. You insisted that crossdressers, transvestites, drag queens etc are not trans. They are today however called transgender. But you rejected that claim. To make it easier for you, I used the correct medical terminology for a person with gender dysphoria who has or is medically transitioned/ing. It is not a value statement. At least not from me. But maybe you have a problem with transsexuals?

Anyway, this is why we keep asking you for your definitions. Without proper definitions nobody knows if you're talking apples or oranges. And comparing apples and oranges just isn't going to be useful.

26 of the 56 studies included in this review are pre-2013, including the one Somethingweird cited. A further 5 studies were published in 2013 and probably used pre-2013 diagnostic criteria because it takes a while to do a study and get it published.

Don't you feel, @crispbuttyfan that current push for send id could cut the legs from fuinding.

Self id (funding on the NHS). Funding which I do not want to be cut.

Self id (funding on the NHS). Funding which I do not want to be cut.

I wonder how many of those turning up here to argue in favor of self-Id (or whatever it is they're arguing in favor of, which is sometimes not entirely clear) realize that precisely this attempt to cut funding may have underlain some Conservative support for the idea, and is certainly something a future Conservative government might decide to pursue as part of their general drive towards austerity.

@LangCleg
#TGLWGH

crisp - thanks for this thread, but can we please restrict discussion of trans issues to those areas where there is an overlap with feminist issues? This is a feminist board.

Well said

Crispybuttyfan
The studies I quoted from form the evidence base used by the NHS for their own gender identity service specification. They are not arguing against medical treatment, they are looking for solid evidence to base it on, and they have found that much of the evidence is weak and that much more research is needed.

And if you are saying that anything pre2013 is irrelevant, then we are looking, at most, at outcomes for people who are a few years into transition, as a basis for life altering, irreversible, medical interventions.

As for meta studies, quoting from another response to the same study quoted by the OP:
"turd sandwiches are even worse as leftovers. Large reviews or meta-analyses based on crappy or biased data in the first place only cause even more trouble when regurgitated second time around"

The point I was really making is that this is a feminist forum, so trans issues that don't impact on feminism - surgery satisfaction levels, as here, for example - don't really belong here. But because OP cannot conceptualise a pro-woman stance, only an anti-trans stance, OP doesn't realise that transgender surgery satisfaction levels aren't really of interest to us.

I agree with this 100%

Posters here (on the whole, there may be a couple) are not anti-trans as claimed. They are pro women. There is a large difference between the two. Fairplayforwomen was called anti-trans the other day I read, but they are not anti-trans either, they are pro woman. 4th wave now was called anti-trans, when again, they are not, they are pro-child. Not everything revolves around transgender ideology. And yes, this thread does not belong in the feminism forum, unless maybe it was specifically about transmen and their surgery or something.

Another spectacular own goal by crispbuttyfan
I lurk on this forum a lot (post very occasionally) and this is just the latest in a series of posts that they have done that have had (at least on me) the exact opposite effect to the one I presume is intended.

Maybe it's the hectoring/patronising tone. Maybe the lack of actual verifiable facts presented (as evidenced by the skilful deconstruction of their arguments by other posters) or a mix of these factors. Either way, I'm unimpressed and unconvinced.
As I'm sure other lurkers are too.

I think that we should take transgender advocates at their word that they view anyone, person or organization, that advocates for women's rights or Feminist principles as anti-trans.

Don't buy it. Read a few tweets in a thread that critiqued the studies used.

From own experience and reading some of the critique about methodology - they tend to have no control groups.

They also ignore the issue of kids, and that many possible trans simply grow up homosexual. Sure, a child acting out with mental health issues, might very well improve if it is told "this is what is wrong with you, we will do this to fix you", but you will be left with a person with surgery possibly, and certainly hormonal treatment for life. Not sure that's a favorable outcome than letting them grow up and in all likelihood desisting.

Furthermore, it ignores social contagion and in fact there was just recently a new study that suggested we don't actually know whether transitioning children is not harmful.

The other issue is who is being looked at? Often it's just successful transitions in the first place. Desistors are ignored. Moreover, it only looks at people who transition in the first place. How many trans people actually do? Applying this to children is unacceptable.

Bump for the related discussion:

Huge meta-study finds that transition helps trans people
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3264356-Huge-meta-study-finds-that-transition-helps-trans-people