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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Australia protesting Laurel Hubbard

74 replies

Springtrolls · 08/04/2018 20:47

It was only a matter of time. Do you think that other countries will now start asking questions about the commonwealth and olympics?

www.news.com.au/sport/commonwealth-games/games-ticking-time-bomb-explodes-as-rival-nation-protests-transgender-weightlifters-presence/news-story/4b2a53fbd236bc63ef1e45d91de5acd6

OP posts:
Igneococcus · 09/04/2018 07:32

Yeah althea I can't really imagine any of my NZ friends being ok with it but I had a look at the NZ Herald reporting of it yesterday and there wasn't even a hint of criticism.

TerfsUp · 09/04/2018 08:46

What I can’t get over is the apparent absence of sportsmanship (or should I say sportswomanship) here.

It highlights the fundamental narcissism and selfishness that runs through TRA ideology. It's not about other people or society: it's about ME ME ME what I want and the heck with other people.

GrouchyKiwi · 09/04/2018 08:59

As a Kiwi I'm glad Laurel withdrew after "injury". I would have been very upset had there been a medal through cheating.

Very few comments I've seen on Facebook and sports pages have been supportive. Most people see it as completely unfair.

BoreOfWhabylon · 09/04/2018 09:05

Oh dear. Poor Laurel.

Never mind, hun. There's always the Olympics.

coolwalking · 09/04/2018 09:07

As an honorary Kiwi I wasn't supporting Laurel. Her attempts to distance herself from the rest of the field by lifting such a weight really backfired. Don't like to see anyone injured though.
A few comments in NZ news today about it being wrong but the PC brigade love her here.

WhaleTasting · 09/04/2018 09:38

How does it feel to win a gold when you already know you're much stronger than the competition

Doesn't matter though. How did Lance Armstrong feel winning when he'd been doping all along? They all do it. Thats why I find it so funny when people say athletes would never play trans to win. Of bloody course they would! If you've been prepping to win something since you were 2 , literally your whole life for This One Thing you're going to do anything to win it.

QueenLaBeefah · 09/04/2018 09:41

Laurel deliberately lost to prove some kind of transactivist point. So not only has this individual no sense of fair play but deprived a woman of a place on the team!

BoreOfWhabylon · 09/04/2018 09:47

I really don't think so Queen. In the video it is clearly visible that Hubbard's left elbow dislocates, at least partially.

Floisme · 09/04/2018 09:53

At least it's still being openly reported that Hubbard is a transwoman. My real nightmare is that we'll get to a stage where no-one in the media will dare say anything and anyone who speculates will have their comment deleted.

FeministBadger · 09/04/2018 10:56

Is participation in sport a human right? Really?

ReappearingWoman · 09/04/2018 11:22

Just read this on an article about Hubbard

England's Emily Campbell, who took bronze, supports Hubbard's inclusion.
"She's human, like the rest of us," Campbell said. "She just wants to lift. That's all she wants to do. People shouldn't be making comments and making her feel horrible for doing something she loves to do."

This baffles me completely. Campbell won a medal & yet supports the inclusion of a male competitor who would have prevented her winning that medal had they not been injured. There's zero logic to this stance. Being inclusive to your own detriment?

TerfsUp · 09/04/2018 11:22

It is, in the same way that using the lavatory of your choice is a human right.

TerfsUp · 09/04/2018 11:23

I should have added Hmm to my post above.

stitchglitched · 09/04/2018 11:27

Comments on twitter seem overwhelmingly against Hubbard's inclusion- particularly a lot of men seem genuinely shocked by it and how unfair it is. Maybe it will take an issue like sport to make alot of people care.

TerfsUp · 09/04/2018 11:32

Anything that peak transes people is fine with me.

ALittleBitOfButter · 09/04/2018 11:39

It's an OrwellIan nightmare. Only adulatory media allowed.

TheLastSoala · 09/04/2018 11:52

The Guardian article on Miller includes a long section at the bottom by a Transgender Activist.

They argue that Miller having to abide by the testesterone limits is unfair because everyone transitions at different rates and it leaves transitioning athletes at higher risk of injuries and health problems.

The article overall seems designed to avoid the journalist having to put any of he issues into their own words.

SarahAr · 09/04/2018 13:07

To judge by the comments, most MNs believe that it is an open and shut case that Laurel Hubbard is a cheat and her competing in the Commonwealth Games is unfair.

She is cannot be a cheat as she has disclosed her status and followed the rules.

Whether it is fair or unfair for her to compete is a more nuanced question. The International Olympic Committee has guidelines to ensure that transgender competitors do not have an unfair advantage. These have changed over time but still require the athlete to maintain their hormone levels in the required range for over a year. It is indisputable that by doing this Laurel will have lost a significant amount of strength and power. Whether or not she still has an advantage is arguable - by medical experts.

Other advantages outside of strength are not necessarily advantages in weight lifting. For example, shorter limbs can be advantage in "Olympic" weightlifting.

If Laurel does not have an unfair advantage, why has she come from nowhere to perform at the top level of the women's competition?

As a man Laurel was a talented weight lifter setting New Zealand junior records. Key factors in weight lifters performance are genetics (is it easier for you to build the right type of muscles) and also technique. Laurel is clearly blessed in both of these areas.

One big difference between women's and men's weight lifting is rates of participation. Go to a gym and the weights room are full of men lifting heavy, with very few if any women. Due to cultural stereotypes, a lot of women are afraid of gaining muscles so don't participate. Therefore, even though there are fine female athletes, the expectation must be that men's lifting is far more competitive than women's lifting.

Another factor in a top athlete's performance is psychology. If Laurel was suffering from severe gender dysphoria, it is entirely possible this affected her form as a man. Now that she is comfortable in her gender, it is likely that her relative performance has improved.

In summary, I don't know whether Laurel competing is fair or not. It is a complex area, not an open and shut case. However, we should be celebrating her athletic achievements. We should also be encouraging more girl and women to take up lifting - after all muscle strength is a key element of overall fitness.

AssassinatedBeauty · 09/04/2018 13:17

I don't think any one here thinks that Hubbard had broken any rules. So not a cheat according to the existing rules. But there is a wider issue about ethics - many people feel that men transitioning and taking part in women's sport is unfair. It's about the rules not the individuals.

I don't think that it's necessary to celebrate Hubbard's athletic "achievements". They are able to walk into the women's competition and dominate at the age of 40 due to reasons that no woman or girl could emulate. That's not going to increase participation rates.

NotBadConsidering · 09/04/2018 13:19

The International Olympic Committee has guidelines to ensure that transgender competitors do not have an unfair advantage.

These guidelines are wrong. The bigger you are, the more you can lift. That's why they are separated by weight class. Generally they are taller too.

It is disputable that power has been lost. If she'd held that 132kg snatch that would have placed her 10th out of 14 in yesterday's men's 90kg class. Doesn't seem like much power loss to me. That 132kg would have been a 20kg difference between 1st and 2nd. Not 1st and last like in the men's. And 2nd place would have been someone 22 years younger.

And your bit about psychology makes no sense. Has her performance gone down because of loss of strength from reduced testerone or gone up because of less "stress"?

Most aren't calling her a cheat. Most are saying the rules are wrong.

Dozer · 09/04/2018 13:30

The rules are unfair.

TerfsUp · 09/04/2018 13:31

Most aren't calling her a cheat. Most are saying the rules are wrong.

Yes.

NotBadConsidering · 09/04/2018 13:33

It's also worth noting that her record of 131kg snatch would have been a world record up until 18 years ago. Only six women have ever lifted more, all at a much younger age and including a Russian woman who has served a doping violation.

cromeyellow0 · 09/04/2018 13:42

The International Olympic Committee has guidelines to ensure that transgender competitors do not have an unfair advantage.

The guidelines were heavily influenced by the 'research' of a trans-identified male, Katharine Hanson.

See notthenewsinbriefs.wordpress.com/2017/11/26/when-womens-rights-are-notadebate/

Australia protesting Laurel Hubbard
cromeyellow0 · 09/04/2018 13:45

Sorry, my mistake, the name is Joanna Harper.