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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Dealing with inflammatory posts re Trans on MN

835 replies

womanformallyknownaswoman · 07/04/2018 17:37

I am concerned to see the message below from MNHQ at the end of the T thread. Regarding posts that I consider "goady", I have a personal policy of not feeding them, not engaging and not rising to the bait. I ignore them. OPs looking for conflict as a way to feed themselves won't get it from me. Firstly, it's exhausting-they are not interested in dialogue, despite what they say, and secondly the best way to deal with them, imo, is to starve them of attention and not rise to the bait. Don't give them what they want i.e. a fight and conflict.

My concern is I predict there will be a lot more new threads and OPs looking for a fight, as the public becomes more aware of the issues and the tide starts to turn against TRAs. They will want to try and get this Place closed down for discussion, and none of us want that to happen.

Personally I have found it empowering to learn how not to engage and to turn it back on them if absolutely necessary, by the use of ridicule and short rebuttals of their nonsense. I am happy to share some techniques if it will help plus learn more from others. There's no point in trying to score points and win all the arguments they make as it's the engagement down their rabbit holes they want - they literally feed off conflict. They're anti-social remember, so any attention is better than none. They want to keep you coming back and arguing, so they can derail, prolong, provoke and generally make life difficult for MNHQ - to force them to take action. The negative attention "turns on" those looking for a fight….so please don't feed them, ignore them and lets keep this place open.

Message for MN:

Hi all

Since this thread is getting near its end, this seems like a good moment to make a really serious point.

We've just made some more deletions on this thread, and we're pretty exasperated tbh - we feel we're running out of ways to say 'please stick within the TGs or risk losing MN as a place to discuss this issue.'

We're really proud of our commitment to free speech, and we put a huge amount of time and resources to enabling this debate to take place - as many of you have pointed out, it's one of the few places left.

To those who haven't yet been able to stop and look at things from our end of the barrel - please understand that you're risking this space for everyone; if you really can't debate civilly with those you disagree with, it might be time to consider that MN is no longer the place for you. We're sorry to have to say this - we don't like it one bit - but tbh nothing else seems to have got through so far: we're at a point of last resort.

Thanks to all those who modify their first instincts and manage to make their points in a calm, considered and civilised manner - even in the face of goadiness. We appreciate it (and so would Michelle.)

Thanks all

MNHQ

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Sue0001 · 10/04/2018 00:47

I believe if the real facts and issues could get respectfully debated women’s and trans people’s rights could be protected and any conflict between them resolved.

This is the best analysis of the legal position I have seen.

Peter Dunne is a lecturer in Law at the University of Bristol, and Co-Convener for Health with the Trans Legal Equality

Tara Hewitt is an NHS Equality, Diversity and Inclusion Lead, Diversity Consultant and Co-Convener for Health with the Trans Equality Legal Initiative.

In July 2017, the Government announced a public consultation on legal gender recognition in the United Kingdom. In particular, it will invite opinion and advice on plans to adopt a model of self-determination (similar to that currently applied in other European jurisdictions, such as Ireland). Self-determination would allow trans persons to obtain a Gender Recognition Certificate on the basis of a statutory declaration, without oversight by a Gender Recognition Panel (s. 1 of the Gender Recognition Act 2004 (GRA 2004)), a diagnosis of gender dysphoria or having to prove real life experience (GRA 2004, s. 2).

The plans to reform the GRA 2004 have met with opposition among some politicians and trans-sceptical advocates (e.g. see here, here, and here).The primary objection is a belief that, if there is no procedure to verify that individuals genuinely self-identify with their asserted gender, dishonest men will improperly claim a female identity in order to access women-only spaces (increasing the risks of assault). In addition, opponents object that self-determination would create a right for trans women, who have no intention to medically transition, to enter locker rooms and public restrooms.

There are, however, important difficulties with abuse-focused objections to self-determination.

Such arguments are a solution to a problem that does not appear to exist. Despite the persistent invocation of assault-focused opposition to trans rights, there is little (if any) evidence that cisgender men use those rights to commit crime. Although, in the UK and around the world, many men do perpetrate assaults against women (often in women-only spaces), they are not dishonestly using trans legal protections to facilitate their crimes. Rather, these men enter segregated facilities in open violation of the law. While reforming the 2004 Act may not reduce the instance of male-pattern violence, neither would it assist nor encourage the commission of such violence.

Claims of potential abuse deny trans populations beneficial legal reforms on the basis that (cisgender) persons – over whom trans communities have no control – might subsequently misuse the law. They are not objective evidence against either the desirability or utility of self-declared gender. If there is a risk of cisgender abuse, rather than punishing trans communities, the Government should address that risk through appropriate channels, such as existing criminal laws.

Abuse-focused opposition to self-determination typically misrepresents existing UK laws. To the extent that one suggests that self-determination would create a new right for trans women, who reject medical transitions, to enter women-only spaces, this ignores current protections set out in the Equality Act 2010 (2010 Act).

Section 7 of the 2010 Act establishes that persons who have a ‘gender reassignment’ characteristic enjoy broad non-discrimination protections. It defines gender reassignment to include a “person [who] is proposing to undergo, is undergoing or has undergone a process (or part of a process) for the purpose of reassigning the person’s sex by changing physiological or other attributes of sex” [emphasis added] (i.e. the person need not be undertaking a medical transition). Therefore, according to s. 7, there already exists a general right for trans women – irrespective of their medical status or whether they have a Gender Recognition Certificate – to access appropriate goods and services (such as single-gender hospital wards, etc.).
The 2010 Act does contain two high-profile exceptions which entitle persons providing single-gender services and communal accommodations to exclude trans persons as a “proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim” (Schedule 3, Part 7(28); Schedule 23(3)). The prime example of such a scenario (referred to in the explanatory notes) is a counselling service for vulnerable women, where service users may refuse to attend sessions if trans women are permitted to attend.

In practice, however, Schedules 3 and 23 are (at least in certain public sectors) rarely applied. Showing a legitimate aim is a high threshold, and many service providers (and users) understand the importance of respecting trans identities (while also appreciating that trans women pose no threat in female-only spaces). Even if this was not the case (and the exceptions were more frequently relied upon), the Government’s proposals would have little impact. Schedules 3 and 23 can operate even where a person has a Gender Recognition Certificate. Thus, assuming that Parliament retains the relevant provisions of the 2010 Act (which currently appears to be the case), self-declaring one’s preferred legal gender would still (where the high bar of a “legitimate reason” is satisfied) allow exemptions for the right to access gender-specific spaces (guaranteed by the 2010 Act) to continue.

RedToothBrush · 10/04/2018 00:54

I believe if the real facts and issues could get respectfully debated women’s and trans people’s rights could be protected and any conflict between them resolved.
You are a TERF then.

Btw, its not just the letter of the law that matters. Its also its practical effect. If you refine sex and replace it with gender it renders the effectiveness of other existing laws considerably different in practical terms. Understanding that as well as what the GRA reform intends to do, is the crux of it.

Not politicians want to go there. Easier to dismiss as problem free.

DarthArts · 10/04/2018 00:58

Sue - I don't think people will argue with your last statement as a matter of principle.

However, respect has to be reciprocal.

I do see respect in abundance from some members of the trans community, generally those who now identify as transsexual to establish their own "foothold" in this mess of gender politics.

I don't see that as a general "position" wrt the trans lobby and that makes discussion and debate very difficult when nuanced discussion is invariably cut off at the start by the determination to hijack/mutate the key definitions of the subject at hand.

Its not a level playing field when the language is being obfuscated deliberately to deny any counterpoint :-(

thebewilderness · 10/04/2018 00:58

The violent acts of transgender identified males upon women's and girl's persons has repeatedly been dismissed as a price that transgender advocates think women should be willing to pay.

Sue0001, these matters are all discussed at length on various threads where you are welcome to add your inflammatory voice.
This is a thread discussing how we can deal with inflammatory posts like yours.

thebewilderness · 10/04/2018 01:02

Sue0001:Changes in society are hard for many people but it is not hard to treat all people with respect and dignity.
It is the submit, or die, part that I am having trouble with.

RedToothBrush · 10/04/2018 01:02

Also

I believe if the real facts and issues could get respectfully debated women’s and trans people’s rights could be protected and any conflict between them resolved.

What the bollocks do you think a majority of people on here would like? This is exactly what most want.

You've just talked over a bunch of them suggesting they haven't been trying hard enough to do this.

You seen to know better than anyone else. That's not listening. You need to listen.

Loads of women here have tried to engage, time after time after time after time after time. And have just been stonewalled as bigots for not doing it 'right'.

thebewilderness · 10/04/2018 01:10

This is that inflammatory sea lion thing that we were warned against isn't it?
TGLWGH

LightofaSilveryMoon · 10/04/2018 01:10

Despite lots of words and paragraphs, I still do not see any rationale at all for accepting or believing the nonsense that men can be women.

Women are women due to female biology. Men are men due to male biology. And then comes female and male upbringing and socialisation.

A person's feelings, however strong, cannot be codified in law and given priority over basic physical reality.

Ereshkigal · 10/04/2018 01:12

Sue, you are clearly not listening to people's views and concerns. They are not just about safety. Why do you think it's reasonable to deny women the right to consent to males being in female spaces? Why do you prioritise male feelings in this issue?

UpstartCrow · 10/04/2018 01:15

Sue0001
The only way to protect the rights of both trans people and women is to support the third spaces and service option.

Please do that. Lets see how it works out for women in the third gender neutral space. Over time its possible that gender neutral will become the norm in most situations, if it proves safe for women.

LightofaSilveryMoon · 10/04/2018 01:20

Yes, I would support a third gender neutral space.

womanformallyknownaswoman · 10/04/2018 04:05

An explanation of seasoning and a very funny cartoon

www.quora.com/What-is-sealioning

OP posts:
womanformallyknownaswoman · 10/04/2018 04:06

Ugh- spell check changed sealioning to seasoning!!

OP posts:
BrashCandicoot · 10/04/2018 04:09

You forgot to copy and paste in your links (here here and here).

Changes in society are hard for many people but it is not hard to treat all people with respect and dignity.
And here we are back to “why can’t you just be nice?”. Good chat, Sue. You clearly have no interest in actually discussing what you’re saying.

womanformallyknownaswoman · 10/04/2018 04:31

@R0wantrees
womanformallyknownaswoman, thank you for such an eloquent post. There's a significant difference, I think, between identifying with women rather that identifying as a woman.

Precisely - you hit the nail on the head. Thx Grin - I am proud of that comment I have to say

OP posts:
womanformallyknownaswoman · 10/04/2018 04:40

I repeat until women and children's safety is centred in any discussion - there is no basis for a fair hearing. I will finish on some statistics - that are to a recognised, rigorous, professional standard (i.e. not based on online surveys that many statistics quoted by the TRAs are):

The only published longitudinal study, i.e. professional standard research, that has been undertaken on the impact of the implementation of gender inclusion policy at a large retail chain, Target in Canada, saw an increase of 300% in sex offences against women and girls. All the sex offenders were male:

The most likely hypothesis to explain our findings is that Target’s policy signaled to sexual offenders that voyeuristic offenses would be easier to perpetrate in their stores than elsewhere. We believe that this study shows that gender-inclusion policies can bring about increased harm to women and children.
womanmeanssomething.com/1034-2/

OP posts:
Pratchet · 10/04/2018 06:29

Trans 'folk' usage - useful sealion indicator

Floisme · 10/04/2018 07:35

I wrote a response to you last night Sue then took my own advice and deleted it. Other posters have already said most of what I want to say but I'm going to repeat it anyway, as courteously as I can, because I am seriously pissed off that your response to male violence and harassment is to tell women they should try harder and love more.

I am really sorry to hear of your experiences and I'm glad you've managed to make your peace with them. But there is a big, big difference between love, respect and blind faith. Put it this way - I also try and see good in everyone but I still lock the front door every night.

The solution to male violence and harassment will only come when the overwhelming majority of decent men stop and take a good look at themselves. In the meantime, women are absolutely right to be cautious around them, to want our own spaces at times, especially when we're vulnerable, and to want separate statistics kept for crime.

It is deeply, deeply fucked up to tell us we should ignore our own instincts when these are the very instincts that help us survive.

flowersonthepiano · 10/04/2018 07:56

LightofaSilveryMoon said A person's feelings, however strong, cannot be codified in law

They have been in the GRA and the equality act.

LightofaSilveryMoon continues

and given priority over basic physical reality.

This is what we are arguing about now.

I often think 'this is not right', but I can remember two past political events where I've had a really strong visceral feeling, as soon as I heard they were about to happen, that they would have serious long term damaging effects.

The first was the decision by the Thatcher government to sell off council houses. The second was that of the Blair government to invade Iraq.

I've learned to trust my gut, and my gut tells me this is a third.

On the subject of the thread, having MN a as space to discuss this is vital. We can do what's being asked without losing vigour. It's very important that we do.

CisPinkHoodie · 10/04/2018 08:09

yes, why are trans people 'folk'?

howlsmovingcastle84 · 10/04/2018 08:13

This idea that women are being a bit hysterical about male violence and just need to stop being such 'scaredy cats' and mean to poor men has my head spinning.
How many times has a women paid the ultimate price because she didn't want to appear rude so she held the door open to the block of flats for the guy who forgot his key, or said 'sure, I'll show you where the bus stop is" or accepted the lift home from the work colleague she had always felt a bit iffy about...

I'm a woman-I'm 5"3 with all the upper body strength of an amoeba. If a guy takes me on, he'll win. I'll happily cross the street at night if I sense a man walking behind me or move further along the deserted platform if it's just me and a strange guy-and if the guy gets a bit sniffy, quite frankly, I couldn't give a shit.

AngryAttackKittens · 10/04/2018 08:14

To me folk is a musical genre involving twangy guitars and men in unfortunate jumpers. Not sure what it has to do with "gender".

Ereshkigal · 10/04/2018 08:16

How many times has a women paid the ultimate price because she didn't want to appear rude so she held the door open to the block of flats for the guy who forgot his key, or said 'sure, I'll show you where the bus stop is" or accepted the lift home from the work colleague she had always felt a bit iffy about...

Yes Ted Bundy, for instance pretended to have a broken arm to take advantage of this.

ScarletBegonias · 10/04/2018 08:27

AngryAttackKittens - And the finger in the ear. Don't forget the finger in the ear.

TallulahWaitingInTheRain · 10/04/2018 08:28

The harms that occur to women under patriarchy occur because of our sex. Nobody harming or exploiting or discriminating against us because we are female stops to check our gender identity first. Therefore, we need sex-based protections.

This is not to deny the existence of gender identity, or its possible biological underpinnings, or the absolute right that everyone should have to express it (insofar as it doesn't harm others) without fear of violence or discrimination. But that's a separate issue and requires a separate solution.