Gender non conforming child (mine!).

[moofolk]

This is the thread I've been avoiding starting for ages and looking for feminist input. This is about my particular circumstance but more generally how should we be encouraging our children to be awesome, happy and strong.
My son, now getting on for 10, has long been gender non-conforming. From nursery age he loved the fairy dresses and dolls, wanting girls' names in games, female characters always his favourite; so far so Mermaids, right? I thought of taking him to Mermaids before I realised that it wasn't a play group for GNC kids to be themselves (which sounded very appealing), but a transition priming group.
Anyway, being a gender critical feminist mum I never had any problem with his non-conforming, if anything I was proud of his strength and individuality. However, now I'm terrified for him. He's not quite internet- ready but when he is l can see why he would find the trans ideology appealing and how easy that would be to find. I can also see how I may have 'done this to him' by not pushing gendered toys when he was littler as I saw many other parents do without realising it. This to me is more proof that the idea of innate gender is bullshit but I digress.
He has over the past years at primary school pushed this down to some extent but it is still there and he would love to be a girl.
He has very few male friends, a very strong girl best friend and adores women and girls. He cries when confronted with structural inequality and poor representation of female characters in films (which is, as you know, often).
So wimms, WWYD? I want to help him show that men can be good, strong and sensitive (his dad is!). I don't want to slate 'being girly', or push him into masculine stereotypes but to be prepared for what may be presented as an easy option ahead.
FWIW he has two very gender conforming roughty-toughty-lads as younger brothers.

I guess what do he want that he thinks being s girl will give him?

Is there any way you can help him achieve those things now, without changing his body?

Make it clear that people can't change sex

Talk to him about what men who do change their bodies to be like women lose - the chance for children of their own for example.

And YY to strict internet controls. No devices in his bedroom at night.

I read [[https://lilymaynard.wordpress.com/2017/11/06/my-first-article-a-mums-voyage-through-transtopia Lily Maynard's article about talking her GNC daughter out of transitioning] and it scared the bejesus out of me, but also gave me some good ideas.

It sounds so hard. You haven't 'done' anything to him.

oh christ, serious link fail

linky

NC for this.
I have some GNC kids and some more conventional kids. I recently got some praise from the older DC after we watched Channel 4’s “No more boys and girls” for us just having toys and dressing up stuff when they were younger.

I have a bit of a mantra - you are perfect, you can love who you want, be who you want, wear what you want. The kids yawn and say “yeah mum, gender is a social construction”. I do worry my gender critical views might be shutting down them talking to me. It is really hard.

The older kids (young adults now) are big influences on the younger ones and I was so relieved when we watched Transformation Street and they said how sad it was that people kept spending money on changing themselves in the hope it would make them happy..

I know not many people will have this option available to them and I hesitate to share it for fear of being flamed but one of ours is at an independent boys’ school partly so that he can be in art, drama, musical theatre clubs and not be the only boy there, as everyone there is a boy (of course).

It sounds counterintuitive to send a sensitive boy to an all boys school but it’s going well compared to previous school. He’s not turned into a team sport loving alpha male (of course) and is clearly more comfortable being the design obsessed flamboyant person he always has been.

I also hope that we have a relationship with school where we can have a partnership supporting any future difficulties (of any sort) together rather than school going off down a particular route without us having a say.

I have a couple GC friends in RL (although we are not “out” due to jobs). One of my fiends has a very sensitive boy and she says, “My best hope for him is that he is a happy gay man.”

moofolk

If you are concerned about this, do consider limiting his exposure to the internet because it's very easy indeed for young people's heads to be turned. You mention that he's not quite at that age, so it could be easier for you to set his access up in a safe way than in a situation where someone had already been influenced by trans activists online. It sounds ridiculous to be writing like this, but there really are lots of sites out there containing people and messages willing and able to damage your child's sense of self & turn a child away from trusting his or her parents.

Sites that are absolutely unsafe for young children include youtube and tumblr, but there are many others. www.gendercriticalresources.com has lists of sites that parents have learned to be wary of.

Have you told him he's going to be a brilliant man when he grows up? Because he is. Ask him if he;s thought about what he wants to do with his life as an adult. Let him explore possibilities.

I can't offer practical advice but I do wonder if in view of the prevalence of teaching kids about gender so early we should also be teaching them basic biology much earlier too.

good luck.... so agree with all the other great advice on here... and that he is whole and perfect as he is.... you will help him navigate these years....

And I hope somewhere there is a resource - or one will emerge - for GNC children who want to flout convention and just enjoy being themselves.....

Good advice all round I'll look through the links and read tomorrow.

Last time he was upset about sexism in the world I agreed about many injustices and pointed out that actually what we need to tackle it is more brilliant men in the world which he will be and more how it is men's responsibility to tackle sex inequality as it is white people's responsibility to tackle racism.

So defo trying to big him up as a future excellent man, and talking about how things change with every generation.

On role models, does anyone have any suggestions; books, film, TV or RL? TBH Harry Potter was a godsend. First male role model since Thomas and even then he was all about Emily!

I've noticed loads of the strong girl books seem to dis boys which I understand but is unhelpful for us. I'm reading The Uncommoners with him which has a boy / girl adventure story lead with the girl as main POV character.

Looking for books with a group of kids / Boy-girl pair or similar. He loves the damsel in distress type girls whereas I like the warrior princess!

Books - we liked the Artemis Fowl books. Artemis is a child genius criminal mastermind but is more than matched by Holly Short from the fairy police. These fairy police are armed and dangerous not sparkly

DD suggested the His Dark Materials Trilogy, a bit darker, but Lyra is not a stereotypical girl and the boys she is friends with are important to her and to the story, so a book about a girl but not a girls (or boys) book.

Two animal books - Born to Run by Michael Morpurgo about a dog who is rescued by a boy, and a girl, and an old man and
A Boy and His Dog by Eva Ibbotson about a boy and his relationship with a dog and his friendship with a girl who he teams up with.

TransgenderTrend have some resources on their website that might help you respond to this
www.transgendertrend.com/resources-for-parents/

Oh op I really feel for, I would be scared as well and that makes me so angry. Ten years ago I would have said that's great, we need more GNC people in the world and that you don't need to do a thing about this, he can like whatever he wants. These days, things are different. I think if this were my child I'd now be trying to steer him towards 'boys things' and I know that is so, so wrong. Other posters had much better ways of helping him.

Talking of gender non conforming male role models, I thought of Jonathan Van Ness, from Queer Eye. Your son is maybe a bit young for the programme right now, but Jonathan is a (gay) man who 'performs femininity'. He has long styled hair (is a hairdresser), wears androgynous clothes, cries easily, is sensitive and 'girly' etc. He is very definitely a happy man. And a lovely one at that.

All of the 'fab five' are obviously gay (so not GNC straight guys) but there are also more stereotypically masculine men who reject toxic masculinity and hug, talk about feelings, support each other.

My husband watched the original programme when he was a teenager (instigated by his mum!) and said it was a memorable and valuable way to see that there were different ways of being a man, other than what society told him he should be.

Just food for thought as a teenager maybe. The men talk about dealing with high school too (especially Jonathan) through the programme.

‘The Boy in a Dress’ by David Walliams? Funny and touching kid’s book about a cross-dressing boy who has a love for ‘girly’ things but is also definitely a boy.

No advice from me but a big hug.

I met the most amazing kids today at a rummage sale - Three very obvious brothers ranging from 9-13 at a guess. Two in jeans and hoodies mooching about chatting with their parents about stuff on tables, and their brother who was literally shining with delight as he pored over the tables of scarves and trinkets - he was dressed in a bright red ruched top with zips down both arms and a black fedora and a necklace, and just looking at him made me smile from ear to ear. He was completely one hundred percent happy with who he was, was blazing grins at everyone and it would have been impossible to be concerned for him. I know the outside world can be very different, but this family had completely nailed acceptance, and as a result he was true to himself and it shone.

Salt: I've read some really sad accounts of parents who tried to force their children to like 'boy' toys without success, so instead have forced them to 'socially transition'. My child was non-conforming. Making them like the clothes and toys they are supposed to like, instead of the clothes they like, is a pointless, frustrating, distressing and unnecessary battle that I wasn't prepared to pick.

I've prepped mine about this sort of thing the same way I've prepped him around religion. 'Some people believe X, so you should be polite, but daddy and I don't, and this is why'

So far, that seems to be working fairly well - neither of them will wear a pink t-shirt to school any more, but they have consciously made the choice rather than been persuaded or drifted into it, and can explain why (DS1 because there's a kid who wouldn't stop taking the mick about it, so for an easy life, and DS2 because he now has a 'school persona' which is black and skulls rather than pink and sparkly - again to avoid hassle)

Captain! Yes - that's an excellent idea (I binge watched the latest version - It was really lovely).

What I really need is for netflix to release a dubbed version of anything like that, with the swearing beeped - because so many things would be appropriate to have on around the kids, if only they didn't swear.

I wonder whether learning a bit about history and other cultures would help him? I mean this idea that men only wear plain blue trousers with no sparkle just sounds ridiculous when you look back at paintings of kings in all their embroidery and jewels, or look at men from the Middle East in those long robes (sorry don’t know the word) or whoever.

There are lots of different fashions for men all around the world and throughout time - he doesn’t need to be a woman to like shiny things or whatever.

What hobbies/interests does he have? Ds2 has loads of female friends (I thought he may be gay, now I think not - he says he’s straight). He does a lot of drama, dance and ballet. I’d recommend it for your son if he has any interest at all. Ballet is great because for the boys it’s all about strength training as they get older and quite different from the things the girls are doing (but still with sensitivity and expression), but in the U.K. is still very much taught in a strong female environment. My son is terrified of his female ballet teacher. She’s badass.

Ds2’s best friends are mainly in the dance/drama world (he attends a boys school).

Also - although it sounds daft, the musical of Billy Elliot had quite a profound effect on my son. He really identified with it. Must dig out the film for him.

I can see why you are worried. I have a friend whose adult son has been pulled in by these forums (he is very vulnerable in other ways though, so very vulnerable to their effect). The sorts of conversations people above have about trans issues sound sensible. My son above (mid teens) has very sensible & quite nuanced opinions about trans issues.

Also wonder if you have female friends who are living the male stereotypes a bit, just to show that the stereotyping is nonsense?
I mean I’m a woman, don’t own any dresses, wear jeans and trainers everyday, spend no time on hair or makeup, etc etc. It’s all nonsense.

I think @DickTerfFin 's comment re secondary school is important - it can make or break a child. Choosing a school where there's lots of other creatives and subjects so that they don't feel "odd" is essential. Not Trans-ed like Goldsmiths though :(

All the advice is about teaching critical thinking skills early so maybe Google examples that are age appropriate to assist its development. So that he learns to discern, probe and discuss - to not take things at face value.

Also introduce the subject that boys and men come in all shapes and sizes and talk about Trans first - talk about how sad it is that some people feel distress and then imagine that cutting their body will help so they can rush into hasty actions that have awful, long term consequences. Whether by razor blades or surgery, the underlying message is the same.

Help his critical thinking - if he feels some distress, what would he do? Where would he seek help? Where would he turn if he felt he couldn't talk to you or father e.g. is there another significant adult(s)around? Talk about SM and the modern pressure to surgically alter oneself (use the Kardashians and Jenner as examples of people who made money by hurting their bodies - so money at no expense to themselves so to speak - in the dash for celebrity status).

Just keep a channel of communication open at all costs, and get a network of good, other reliable adults in place - so he feels "held" by a community. And limit internet access - Gates etc don't allow their kids on until late teens - until they have developed their critical thinking - limit time on it.

Good luck

I've never seen queereye but he does love the boy in the dress. He was all ready to go as Dennis to world book day this year but changed his mind at the last minute which I thought was quite sad.
I'd insisted he do the football socks and trainers but even then he decided against it for fear or being teased.
He's not ready for His Dark Materials and definitely not Billy Elliot yet. He's very sensitive and they'd both upset him I think.

He loves Strictly and I've been trying to find him ballroom dance classes but to no avail. He didn't want to ballet as he wouldn't be allowed to wear the dress (yes when he was littler I considered just saying he was a girl so he could wear the skirt instead of black trousers and white t shirt but decided against it).

He's fabulously flamboyant and creative and comes across as very charming and confident but doesn't want to do drama.
He sounds like a proto camp gay man and he may well yet blossom into one but his attraction to all things female makes me think perhaps not.

I've read Lily Maynard, 4th wave now and transgender trend they are useful.

Secondary school is a worry. He's likely to be separated from his girl bff, and it is where a lot of problems and informal sex segregation begins. Private boys school is not an option but I can see how it could help (never thought I'd say that) and glad it's helping aburr

palepink yes I'm the short haired no-or-little make-up type who goes out to work while dad stays at home and does most of the cooking. When DSs are interested in computer programming or video game design we have female friends for them to talk to about it.

I can hear him singing his own soundtrack now, showtune style. I think I can even hear jazz hands.