France seems to have spotted some legal issues with mucking around with gender law

[Winewinewinegin]

www.bioethicsobservatory.org/2018/02/supreme-court-ban-assignment-neutral-gender/24646

Correction: I strongly suspect it was the latter, i.e. based on self-declaration.

So the French courts in fact seem to be denying this person legal recognition of the physical condition of being intersex but would happily allow id based on gender.

You are right that this is a strange and unfair situation, although I don't think it's at all clear that the initial ruling to create a 'gender neutral' sex category was in fact based on the person's physical condition. It would mean the court would have had to specify that only intersex persons could use that category, and we don't know whether it did.

This judgment is not a good outcome for this person, or any intersex person who feels similarly, but that doesn't mean the lower court's ruling would have made good law either.

We certainly can't tell what the exactly the court action said from a precis of a translated court article.

However the second article sets out the person's motives which refer to physical characteristics.

According to his doctor the plaintiff, 64, was born with a "rudimentary vagina" and a "micropenis" but no testicles.

He approached the courts as he did not want such an "unequivocal" designation as male or female.

Speaking to the newspaper 20Minutes back in October the 64-year-old,who is married with an adopted child and lives in eastern France said: "As a teenager I understood that I was not a boy. I didn't have a beard, my muscles didn't build."

After doctors administered testosterone he said "My appearance became more masculine. It was a shock, I no longer recognized myself. It made me realize I was neither a man nor a woman."

The whole case isn't really the bastion against transgender ideology some posters have been claiming for it.

Yes, those were his arguments, but the question is whether the lower court actually created a sex category for intersex people, or whether they simply agreed that he (and following that anyone) had the right to designate himself 'gender neutral'.

The whole case isn't really the bastion against transgender ideology some posters have been claiming for it.

I was glad to see that the judges in this case recognised the profound implications for the whole of society - not just the individual in question - for changing the way the law conceptualises sex. That understanding has been singularly lacking in many other countries, where the judiciary and the legislature have taken an approach that only be described as short-sighted and reckless. However, I agree that the issues here are complex and there is no call for a triumphalist tone - as the OP I think acknowledged when she realised the case involved an intersex person.

Are you aware that French law permits transitioning without medical procedure upon application to a court?

The requirements under the law to obtain a change of gender marker on the document are that an adult or emancipated minor[1] needs to demonstrate an adequate combination of facts that prove that the reference to their gender in civil status does not match the one in which they are known. This can include publicly stating their gender identity; that one is known as having that gender identity amongst family, friends; and that one has already changed their name to match the requested gender

So lauding this decision, which affects one person, as some sort landmark decision against transitioning is ill- judged and looks very much like gloating.

Apologies again to anyone who felt upset by the post. I hadn't read through the details and had not realised it involved someone intersex. I absolutely don't think people should gloat at others situations and did not mean it in that way, and am very sorry if that came across in that way to some.

My last post wasn't intended to include you OP after you realised the case is not a transgender issue.

As lass has described me as a gloater I withdraw any contribution this conversation.