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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Safeguarding children from their parents

32 replies

womanformallyknownaswoman · 06/04/2018 10:04

One of the key issues Heather Brunskell-Evans referenced in her recent interview on the Megan Murphy podcast was about how many people are afraid of personal and job reprisals if they publicly raise their concerns about the current trend to diagnose ‘gender non-conforming’ children as transgender.

Of particular concern to me was her assertion that workers employed in children's, plus counselling, welfare services and the like, are effectively being muzzled by the climate of assigning dissent to fascism. The real retribution from policies and workplaces that assert that dissent is transphobic, and hence a violation of their employment contract, is an effective and extremely concerning method of coercively controlling people into silence, who have legitimate concerns about the welfare of children.

She also stated that some of these employees are prevented from voicing their very real concerns for children's welfare at the hand of their parents. These parents are adamant that any sign of their children showing any deviation from the road of their definition of "normal" for their sex thus means the child is trans-gender. These parents are not moved by counsellors and the like expressing the view that the children are not abnormal nor transgender but just undergoing normal childhood developments stages.

I am curious as to whether anyone here can confirm from their lived experience that her concerns are all too real.

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rowdywoman1 · 06/04/2018 10:37

This judgement demonstrates how professionals completely failed to protect a young boy whose mother was determined that he was a girl, despite evidence to the contrary. It's long but really worth reading as the judgement takes the trouble to identify how being uncritical re the mother's claims (she was evidently very mentally unwell) on the part of a multitude of professionals actually caused harm to this little boy.

www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/Fam/2016/2430.html

LangCleg · 06/04/2018 11:07

I agree. We have excellent interlocking systems - teachers, social workers, family courts, HCPs - that act in concert and should ensure child protection. I recently saw a child protection lawyer working in this area arguing that there were no or very few safeguarding concerns for individual children over trans issues because very few safeguarding referrals were coming across their desk.

But the safeguarding issue is that nobody is referring safeguarding issues!

I think there are many more parents terrified of the suicide and other propaganda shoved down their throats than there are Munchausen abusive types - but our systems should be acting and helping these parents. And they aren't.

womanformallyknownaswoman · 06/04/2018 11:37

@rowdywoman1 thx for that informative and disturbing paper. The mother demonstrates all the signs of a Cluster B personality disorder from her reported behaviours, for example Narcissistic Personality Disorder or the like - or being under someone else's control (e.g. a cultic relationship). Irrespective, her behaviour is and was doing harm to her child. And because of her unrelenting, aggressive assertions and behaviour, plus obfuscation and deliberately withholding - instead of those tasked with safeguarding confronting her, they seemed to have enabled the very behaviour that was causing the child such profound harm to his core personality, at so young an age. I'm not surprised that some vocal, entitled males are now expressing concern about a potential generation of neutered boys. Thank goodness for that common sense female judge. I've pasted a couple of extracts below for those who want a summary (please note M = Mother, F = Father and J=Child :

[M] cannot see that [J] may be consciously or unconsciously trying to please her by assuming a female gender identity now that [M] has formed the view that this is [J]'s preference."
………

I agree with that approach. I consider that M has caused significant emotional harm to J in her active determination that he should be a girl. I find that she has overborne his will and deprived him of his fundamental right to exercise his autonomy in its most basic way. Whether J chooses to present as a girl or not, ought to be his choice. This is not a case about gender dysphoria, rather it is about a mother who has developed a belief structure which she has imposed upon her child. I accept the evidence of Dr Hellin that M has become 'enmeshed' with J, in that she is unable to distinguish his feelings from her own. As such she is ill-equipped to meet J's emotional needs. M told me in her evidence that if J were not returned to her care, as she correctly anticipated might happen, he ought to be removed from his father and placed with an independent foster carer where, she reasoned, he would be free from any pressure to be a boy. This proposal, which was genuinely advanced, illustrates the chasm that has developed between J's needs and M's capacity to meet them.

My experience in the Family Division leaves me with little doubt that some children, as young as 4, 5, 6 years of age may identify strongly with their opposite gender. Such children can experience rejection and abuse arising from ignorance both on a personal and institutional level. Though none of the parties referred me to it, I have read the House of Commons Select Committee report 'Transgender Equality', dated 14th January 2016, which investigates the challenges in securing sensitive NHS care and accessing affirming educational environments for transgender adults and children. It is important that such children are listened to and their views afforded respect but, to my mind, they are ill served by premature labelling. What they require, as F has so capably demonstrated, is the opportunity to develop their identity in which ever way it evolves. J was not only deprived of that space and opportunity by his mother, he was pressed into a gender identification that had far more to do with his mother's needs and little, if anything, to do with his own.

Transgender equality has received a great deal of attention in recent times. I believe that in this case the profile and sensitivity of the matters raised by the mother blinded a number of professionals from applying their training, skills and, it has to be said, common sense. They failed properly to investigate M's assertions, in part I suspect, because they did not wish to appear to be challenging an emerging orthodoxy in such a high profile issue.

Whilst I have been greatly impressed by Ms Davidson's social work skills in this case, I reject her analysis as to the appropriate legal framework to be applied. It is, in my view, self evident that the challenges that lie ahead for J are significant. It seems to me that he faces two serious risks. Firstly, he may lose direct contact with his mother altogether. She has been the centre of his world for most of his life. He worries about her. Were she to break free from her rigid and ultimately false belief structure she would have a huge amount to offer as a parent. I believe J would grieve the loss of his mother bitterly. Secondly, if contact is not monitored very carefully, with reference to this judgment and to the history of this case, it has the potential to corrode J's core identity. Furthermore, experience shows us that adolescence can often be a time when earlier psychological harm begins to take its toll. I consider that this father should be given the maximum support available, buttressed by imposing upon the Local Authority, the statutory duties of a Care Order. In addition the permissive flexibility of an order pursuant to s.34 (4) Children Act 1989 strikes me as particularly suited to the circumstance of this case.

To some extent Ms Davidson foreshadows this in her final statement:
The Local Authority care plan regarding [J]'s contact with his mother has been the most difficult part of this care plan to formulate. The Local Authority is mindful that there are many positives within the contact between [M] and [J], that [J] appears to enjoy contact sessions and that [J]'s verbally expressed wish is to live with his mother. [J] clearly closely identifies with his mother, worries about her and that she forms a big part of [J]'s understanding of his identity. However, as set out in Section 5, there are several concerns regarding the impact of contact on [J]. These primarily relate to the amount of influence that [M] holds over [J] and the amount to which, her views regarding [J] and [F], limit [J]'s ability to develop his own identity and relationship with [F].
Whilst I share those concerns I consider them to be of such significance that they require continuing and proactive Local Authority intervention. More generally I reject the easy assumption that a public law order is, of necessity, significantly intrusive to a child's life. It need not be, it can be understated, sensitive and light touch where the child is concerned. I am very pleased that the Local Authority has agreed that Ms Davidson may continue to be assigned to this case. I am confident that she can implement the Care Order as I intend it should be.
There is no formula by which frequency of contact may be calculated. F considers that J needs a period of decompression whilst he starts a new school year and that contact should otherwise be structured around his needs. I am prepared to be guided by a parental instinct which has proved steady in challenging circumstances. I propose that contact be suspended until the October half term and thereafter continue on a monthly basis subject to the caveats I have identified from the evidence.

J has two very intelligent parents. F's empathy and sensitivity enable him to offer his son a great deal. M's lively and creative mind, her sense of fun and her powerful capacity to express herself are also gifts from which her son may derive very great benefit. Whilst Dr Hellin maybe right in her bleak prognosis about M's capacity to change, human nature can be remarkably resourceful and resilient. The Family Courts sometimes sees changes in human behaviour which confound expert expectation. I hope for J's sake that this is such a case.

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womanformallyknownaswoman · 06/04/2018 11:39

@LangCleg Great point - does anybody monitor the absence of safeguarding issues referrals or is it just all overlooked given the austerity regime, huge workloads and over-extended staff?

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Terfmore · 06/04/2018 11:43

I think with young children a safeguarding referral would get through, likely on parenteral m/h. It is the older children who are at risk. People just don't know what to say so end up with a collusive passive acceptance.

The other factor is the fear of aggressive complaints (organised complaints from Mermaids et al or the constant complaining of the pd types).
No local authority has the money to fight an Eq A case. It is not simply the fine that may result but the legal costs would be enormous. There really is no money.

There is also the fact this is largely a middle class problem. In a crisis focused system there is not the resources for a child who is otherwise well cared for. (sorry)

Being framed as a medical problem also has an effect.

There are lots of gaps in procedures, a big one imo is information sharing. I assume a family history is taken and family therapy offered prior to transition being approved for a child. There may be relevant information held by social services (history of child sexual abuse etc) One would hope the family would tell the family therapist about this. Chances are they wouldn't because these things are kept secret.

sydenhamhiller · 06/04/2018 11:49

OP:
muzzled by the climate of assigning dissent to fascism
I love this phrase you wrote. Not necessarily about this topic, but just about everything right now.

UpstartCrow · 06/04/2018 11:52

This is like the Satanic Abuse scandal all over again.

womanformallyknownaswoman · 06/04/2018 13:46

@Terfmore good point re avoiding legal challenges and it's plays into the hands of the aggressive, TRA led and funded tiny minority. Re information sharing - I'm not in a position to comment from direct experience but I would think any sexual abuse would be invariably covered up and not in any notes. Predators are so cunning…

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womanformallyknownaswoman · 06/04/2018 13:49

@sydenhamhiller - Thx - I'm a poet and didn't know it ;) And yes it does seem a great phrase to sum up the reign of muzzling of women we're in - dogs that we are /s

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womanformallyknownaswoman · 06/04/2018 13:50

@UpStartCrow - would you elaborate? I recall it but don't recall what the final verdict of it was

I'll be back later

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rowdywoman1 · 06/04/2018 14:26

The satanic abuse allegations back in the late 80s / 1990s (in the UK -
this was a world wide phenomenon) were based on the belief that groups of children in the Orkneys and Rochdale were subject to ritualised satanic abuse - the investigations resulted in children being removed from homes in dawn raids following allegations which subsequently proved to be false. Some children were kept away from their families for many years and two children were told that their birth mother was dead. Lots of professionals were drawn into this with training courses and conferences and subsequently after a major investigation which proved that the allegations were unfounded, significant damages were paid to a number of families.
It was complicated - there certainly was abuse involved in one of the Orkney families but as a result of an over zealous approach which failed to hold the needs of individual children at the centre, children were dealt with in a shocking way by the professionals charged with protecting them. This article gives an insight into some of the issues.

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2006/oct/21/comment.children

LangCleg · 06/04/2018 14:32

There is also the fact this is largely a middle class problem. In a crisis focused system there is not the resources for a child who is otherwise well cared for.

That's an excellent point.

Hypermice · 06/04/2018 14:33

An extremely sensible and shrewd statement from the judge. I think a judge can speak about these matters without the pressures faced by professionals who are lower down the pecking order/ muzzled by their organisations. It’s absolutely VITAL people in positions of power and influence such as judges speak out like this - in well argued, legally consistent ways.

Quietlife1979 · 06/04/2018 14:41

We do not have a fantastic interlocking welfare system at all. It’s soley down to individual cases, people, professionals and many many more factors.

To think we have this perfect safeguarding system is a joke!

It’s run by humans and humans nororiously fuck up.

MrsUnderwood · 06/04/2018 15:15

@womanformallyknownaswoman
@UpstartCrow

Forgive me for barging in but I'm quite interested in the Satanic Ritual Abuse cases in the 1980s and 1990s and Crow is right, there are a lot of parallels.

The SRA cases started off in America. There was not one sole root cause, rather it was a combination of political, social and religions factors, combined with a whole lot of quackery around a now debunked theory of "suppressed memory syndrome".

Everything kicked off when a (quite mentally unwell) woman thought her son was being abused by workers at his nursery, and the child was coerced by his mum, social workers and therapists to "remember" all sorts of horrific and OUTLANDISH stuff about being forced to participate in Satanic rituals which involved sexual abuse, torture and the murder of infants. The people who worked at the child's daycare and others were arrested, and panic set into the community. Soon more and more children were admitting all sorts of horrible things being done to them (after being pressed by their parents that they MUST have seen something, something MUST have happened).

More and more cases started to spring up all over the country and in the UK, too. Strange behaviour and symptoms in young children (which could have be as a result of other, much more mundane factors), were being attributed to a completely unproven and, frankly insane phenomenon.

It took some years before the world came to its senses, but by then the damage was done and hundreds of lives were ruined.

Here's a link to the Wikipedia page. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satanic_ritual_abuse

There's also a good book on the subject called Satan's Silence which goes into a lot of detail as to the origins of the phenomenon, which I think anyone who is interested in modern theories on transgender children would find illuminating.

FeministBadger · 06/04/2018 15:41

We know that the Tavistock have a sensible watch and wait approach to children presenting with gender dysphoria - the problem is when parents are encouraged by groups with vested interests to circumvent waiting times by ordering "prescribed" hormones online from quacks who think it's possible to diagnose children as transgender following a 15 minute web chat. Especially as children are being trained via internet chat rooms about the right things to say to be diagnosed.

There needs to be significant clamp down on dodgy online doctors as a first port of call and a long, hard look into organisations that actively teach parents how to get around NHS guidelines.

MrsUnderwood · 06/04/2018 16:03

I agree, @FeministBadger, unfortunately the availability of information for parents in this situation is overwhelmingly on the side of obtaining puberty-blockers and encouraging social transition in order to prevent the child becoming suicidal.

nightshade · 06/04/2018 16:23

I would imagine that any concerns in this area will be raised under private law..ie separating parents and residence contact issues..

Unless social services have evidence to show that a specific child is suffering significant harm at the hands of a parent..particularly in relation to physical sexual emotional or neglect then they will not actively go persuing trans children ...it would be unethical..

FeministBadger · 06/04/2018 16:36

Very true @nightshade in fact I don't believe this is social service remit as such (and I'm wary of a creeping removal of parental rights) but there are many more organisations who ought to get involved.

I think it falls to the GMC to remove the licence of practitioners prescribing off label drugs to children below the age of consent when they've never met them. I think the Charity Commission should be able to remove charitable status from organisations who are actively lying about suicide statistics to scare parents into their preferred course of action. I also think that there's general press standards that ought to be respected about being honest about puberty blockers which don't paint them as a happy, time buying choice but serious medication which has significant side effects such as depression and osteoporosis.

FeministBadger · 06/04/2018 16:38

And yes @MrsUnderwood but I'm reassured that the NHS website no longer points to Mermaids at the very least - seems a bit absurd to be promoting an organisation actively working to undermine your guidelines!

rowdywoman1 · 06/04/2018 16:47

nightshade
The judgement linked above in the case of child J established clearly that a child was suffering significant harm as a result of the mother deciding that the child was transgender. The judge evidenced how social services were totally caught up with the adult's views of her child and failed to listen to / observe the child at all (a very common feature of serious case reviews). The judge observed :
Transgender equality has received a great deal of attention in recent times. I believe that in this case the profile and sensitivity of the matters raised by the mother blinded a number of professionals from applying their training, skills and, it has to be said, common sense.
The consequence was that the child was removed from the mother and placed with the father and social services seriously criticised for their behaviour.
The judge was experienced in transgender cases apparently and acknowledged that some children do display signs of gender dysphoria at an early age. But it is the idea that no one may question a parent's diagnosis of transgender in their young child that leaves so many children at risk of harm. There should be no 'off limits' situations with regards to children's safety. I suspect that in some of these cases with young children we may be looking at parents suffering from fabricated illness (Munchasen's syndrome by proxy) but unless teachers, social workers and other professionals are allowed to ask questions, children will remain vulnerable, in these cases to emotional abuse. Again, it is transgender lobby groups who shut down these questions with allegations of transphobia - unheard of in safeguarding terms for any other issues or group of children.

InsomniaInTheMiddle · 06/04/2018 16:55

This is like the Satanic Abuse scandal all over again.

And who will be the ones most damaged by it?

The children who are being fed a web of lies; you'll have castrated young men; who having not been allowed to go through puberty, will either have a micro penis and low libido; or if they carry on and want SRS not have enough penile tissue to form a neo-vagina

Young women who will have had Hysterosalpingo-oophorectomy, & bilateral Mastectomy and all the side effects from long term testosterone.

  • Potential for increased risk of female hormonal cancers such as breast, ovarian and uterine *Some studies warn of blood clots, strokes and increased risk of heart disease in women taking testosterone.

Not to mention the 'harmless' puberty blockers. Leuprorelin one of the most commonly used ones has horrible side effects even when used in the management of conditions it was developed for.

And they will all be infertile.

This will explode, but it will be to late for some.

TheGoldenBough · 06/04/2018 18:26

What is driving parents to want their children to transition? That's what I just don't understand.

Do they believe the gender stereotypes so much that it must be true?

Do they just want their child to be 'special'?

MrsUnderwood · 06/04/2018 19:37

@TheGoldenBough It’s a combination of factors.

  1. Gender stereotyping seems to be a lot worse now than when I was growing up in the 80s and 90s, and it starts from before birth. Young children will take in these messages and if they don’t “fit in” with what society says is typical of a boy/ girl they may believe that they aren’t the right gender.

  2. When I was a kid in the 1990s, I remember that if someone was labelled “gay” or “lesbian” it was the equivalent to being a disgusting pervert. Then gay people became more visible, stereotypes were being destroyed left, right and centre, and now we’re in a place where gay people are being accepted properly. I think there are a lot of people who have witnessed this quite seismic cultural change and don’t want to be on the “wrong side of history” when it comes to trans children.

  3. Lack of critical thinking. People just take the “woman in a man’s body” statement at face value without really interrogating what that means.

  4. Most parents just want their children to be happy, and if they think that their child is at risk of suicide because they aren’t supportive enough of their transition (which is what they are being told by transactivists) then they’ll probably go along with it because they believe it’s in their child’s best interests. Tavistock give sensible “wait and see” advice but they are far from the loudest voice out there.

The fear that your child might kill themselves and it will be your fault because you didn’t love them unconditionally, for who they are, must be very real. It takes a great deal of courage for a parent to resist the message that transition is the best treatment for gender dysphoria, especially when their children are getting indoctrinated on YouTube and Tumblr.

womanformallyknownaswoman · 06/04/2018 23:02

I think indoctrination by social media has a lot to answer for - it really is messing with vulnerable, and un-critical thinking, minds alike around such things as acceptable sexual practices (av. age of boys viewing hardcore porn is 11yrs old!) plus driving kids who feel distress as a body symptom into the arms of unscrupulous vested interests. The parents of the latter can be "conditioned" by targeted social media content into thinking that transitioning will help resolve any distress/will be good for the child/ is trendy and cool/"normal"

The example given in the paper @rowdywoman1 shared looks like the mother is narcissistic so was creating a "mini-me". I.E. interfering with and undermining the boy's right to be a boy. I would think these examples are rare but perhaps not. Anecdotally, I noticed there's an increasing number of pet dogs who are treated just like children by their self absorbed owners, including dressing them like people - I find that trend very disturbing - but when it extends to children someone needs to intervene.

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