WEP - Sophie Walker on Twitter - what's going on?

[BlueSkyandSunshineToday]

SW has come under fire from TRAs and is fighting her corner on Twitter. I've not seen the full thread or the retweet that has sent the TRAs into a spin - can anyone linky? Thanks

Really? Goolieana is in an echochamber with mmmmmy.

Leave them to it

quite a lot of people with considerable influence have retweeted...

I thought the Giuliana was a parody?

Don't think so Ro.

Perhaps the odd tweet but usually zero retweets and a few likes and responses from the followers

An irrelevance

it really is worth looking at more deeply...

Looks like Sophie Walker is aiming to have genuine, open, offline debate about it within the party.

There is a working group being set up, Sophie dropped this into an online members web chat last week.

@Winewinewinegin What is this new line in the comments about HF's article being incorrect under law? Someone is saying the article is wrong because it is confusing the GRA reform with freedoms given in the EA2012. What does this mean? Is it accurate?

(There are far more knowledgeable people on here- please correct me if I misspeak).

The article conflates the proposed changes to the GRA and the existing EA, because they need to be seen together. The EA makes gender reassignment a protected characteristic.

If an amended GRA makes assigning your gender something that anyone can do by filling in a form then I (a man) could fill in said form, probably wait a month or so, then wander into my local female only gym and sit in the changing room watching the boobies go by. If the gym objected, I could use the EA to force their compliance. Imagine how risky this gets when you start talking about prisons and refuges.

I should point out that organisations can still treat sex and gender differently under the EA, but they don't; someone with a driving licence that says they are female will, in practice, always be treated as a woman. Some feminists oppose even this, but with the present medical diagnosis being required for a GRC the safeguards are much better than under the proposed changes.

The potential problems with the proposed GRA are much broader than my silly and reductive example makes out- if biological women don't exist as a class, recognised by the government, then systems which errode sexism (albeit too slowly) don't work properly anymore- but you get the gist.

Thanks Don. Is it just gender reassignment or some element of thinking about it that is currently a protected characterstic?

Is it just gender reassignment or some element of thinking about it that is currently a protected characterstic?

It's gender reassignment, but my understanding is that this extends from when a trans person starts that process. This has lead to many firms being unwilling to challenge anyone who says they are a woman, so in practice a number of the concerns about the amended GRA are already happening.

It's worth pointing out that actual cases of abuse like this are very rare; but the worry is that an amends GRA would give a free pass to the creepy nutters out there. This is why you will see a number of transexuals on MN pushing this campaign- they worry that some very loud 'transwomen' are really stirring up transphobia.

Personally I think the other effects of an amended GRC will be worse in the long run, but the fear of abuse is probably the one that grabs attention.

As I understand it the protected characteristic of gender reassignment talks about 'embarking on the process' (paraphrasing) . So it's from the minute you say it out loud.

But shouldn’t the protected characteristic of gender reassignment be just that - no one should be discrimated against for identifying as any particular gender, presenting how they wish, conforming or not to gender stereotypes as they feel is right for them - not automatically confer the protections of the opposite sex?!? Is this all about the law not being able to tell the difference between sex and gender.

But shouldn’t the protected characteristic of gender reassignment be just that - no one should be discrimated against for identifying as any particular gender, presenting how they wish, conforming or not to gender stereotypes as they feel is right for them - not automatically confer the protections of the opposite sex?!?

It should be, and arguably it is. There is an explicit separate protected class of sex, and exemptions for single sex activities where a valid reason exists. These could easily be used to enforce women only toilets or men only choirs. The problem is that organisations and individuals interpret the law the way Datun describes.

Is this all about the law not being able to tell the difference between sex and gender.

While the EA seems to allow this, the mechanisms of state which predate it largely don't. Official documents often use sex and gender to mean the same thing. As the sociological meaning of gender has become the accepted one, definitions have become confused- arguably the vague social construct of 'gender' now has a firmer place in law than biological sex.

@Winewinewinegin

Self-id is a reform of the GRA, yes.

BUT the government in its response to the proposal on introducing self-id has also agreed to recommendations made by the trans equality inquiry that will abolish sex-based exemptions currently in the EA - Recommendation 12 means no more sex-based exemptions in employment and Recommendation 13 means no more sex-based exemptions in sports.

Recommendation 12 attacks one of the strongest sex-based exemptions we currently have. It does so only by sleight of hand - the recommendation is actually based on legal advice that looked at the old GRA, but as Recommendation 6 is about bringing in self-id, it will of course mean not just no more exempting transsexuals with a GRC (the intended beneficiary) but also no exempting that weekend crossdresser.

And since most organisations are already scared to or ignorant how to apply the existing sex-based exemptions, taking away such an important one will have massive repercussions for single-sex provisions for women.

Walker is reaping what she sowed.

She fucked up big time on the webchat in 2016, and she's never been able to claw back the ground she threw away with both hands lost. IMO she does not state anything unequivocal, always leaves herself wiggle room to claim she never meant what you took from her words. (So, just like lots of other politicians.) And I expect her to pull the same stunt here.

Do you have evidence for that, Terfin? It’s just that posting that article and link to a business kinda seems like you’re handing anyone so inclined the means to harass these people..... now AFIAA feminists fighting to protect women’s rights don’t use that tactic, that’s a TRA tactic. But Doxxing is very much frowned upon in general.

I’ve seen a few other pics of Mark, it’s highly likely he is giuliana. He’s calling WPUK meetings Nazi hate rallys, of course the person behind that account should be identified.

but correctly GenderApostate.

Also should they be identified. I post on twitter under my own name, but there are lots of women who don't feel able to do that. should they be identified?

Maybe getting a heap of abuse, insults and threats from TRAs will give Walker an idea of what gender-critical feminists have to put up with. Maybe it will cause her to rethink who she makes alliances with. I'm not holding my breath, but you never know.

It is interesting - she does seem to be getting her arse in gear all of a sudden. She is calling out some of the madhat paranoia with a bit of political sense. Maybe if a few more politicians did this instead of screaming 'transphobe', or hiding, at the merest hint of discussion the nut jobs churning out bile on twitter would have a lot less power.

Cwenthryth wrote - "Is this all about the law not being able to tell the difference between sex and gender."

It not about difficulty, it's about will. It's about law makers caring so little about women and girls that they don't even feel they have to make an effort to ensure that the laws they create accurately define what sex is and what sex is not.

She’s getting a real pasting. I can’t access twitter just one but anyone who can, do go and support her.

just now

This has got to be a step in the right direction even if it is only the teensiest step forward.

what's interesting is how many men and TRAs are currently tweeting furiously at Sophie in anger at the fact she has referenced an article talking about men shouting down women....