Meet the Other Phone. Only the apps you allow.

Meet the Other Phone.
Only the apps you allow.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

A new way to be mad

23 replies

hackmum · 05/04/2018 19:30

This is the most interesting article I've read in a long time:

www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2000/12/a-new-way-to-be-mad/304671/

It's about people who have an overwhelming desire to amputate their limbs, but it ranges over a number of other conditions, such as anorexia and people who feel themselves to be the wrong sex. It talks about the way that in particular societies at particular times, certain mental disorders become very widespread (e.g. multiple personality disorder in the 70s). It's long, but thought-provoking.

OP posts:
cinnamonwoman · 05/04/2018 20:21

Fascinating read. Thanks for posting it! It’s 18 years old Shock

Fishfingersandwichnocheese · 05/04/2018 20:22

I’ve posted about this before - the limb amputation and how I’ve wondered if there’s any link to being trans.

Fishfingersandwichnocheese · 05/04/2018 20:22

If anyone knows more I’m all ears.

Wombman · 05/04/2018 20:41

Absolutely fascinating. It reminds me of a book about anorexia nervosa whose author, a health worker in the field, believed that the condition was a form of culturally permitted psychopathology.

hackmum · 05/04/2018 21:00

I didn't spot that it was 18 years old! That's amazing, as it feels completely fresh and relevant. (Someone linked to it on Twitter.) Fishfinger - I think it was probably seeing your posts that drew me to it. But you can very much see that the link is there - that dissatisfaction with the body and the sense that your body doesn't represent the "real" you.

OP posts:
RedToothBrush · 05/04/2018 21:08

Crucial to the way this worked is what Hacking calls the "looping effect," by which he means how a classification affects the thing being classified. Unlike objects, people are conscious of the way they are classified, and they alter their behavior and self-conceptions in response to their classification. Look at the concept of "genius," Hacking says, and the way it affected the behavior of people in the Romantic period who thought of themselves as geniuses. Look also at the way in which their behavior in turn affected the concept of genius. This is a looping effect. In the 1970s, he argues, therapists started asking patients they thought might be multiples if they had been abused as children, and patients in therapy began remembering episodes of abuse (some of which may not have actually occurred). These memories reinforced the diagnosis of multiple-personality disorder, and once they were categorized as multiples, some patients began behaving as multiples are expected to behave. Not intentionally, of course, but the category "multiple-personality disorder" gave them a new way to be mad.

And

I don't want to take a stand on whether either of these accounts is right. It may be that neither is. It may be that there are elements of truth in both. But let us suppose that there is some truth to the idea that sex-reassignment surgery and diagnoses of gender-identity disorder have helped to create the growing number of cases we are seeing. Would this mean that there is no biological basis for gender-identity disorder? No. Would it mean that the term is a sham? Again, no. Would it mean that these people are faking their dissatisfaction with their sex? No. What it would mean is that certain social and structural conditions—diagnostic categories, medical clinics, reimbursement schedules, a common language to describe the experience, and, recently, a large body of academic work and transgender activism—have made this way of interpreting an experience not only possible but more likely.

Suggesting that there is a need for a feedback loop - in which you are either victim or validated. Both work, its the attention it brings that is important to the sense of worth (which includes positive and negative input into that sense of self).

And it exists within a bubble of experience which is held within a certain set of circumstances. Of course you wouldn't want the cornerstones of that bubble to be disrupted so you would be hostile to questions about conditions of how and why. Pop the bubble and the shared experience falters. It is in essence a cult of experience.

Hmm interesting.

RedToothBrush · 05/04/2018 21:11

Also if gender was the thing of the moment, you'd potentially expect a cult around gendered experience to form from what that seems to suggest.

Correct?

Ereshkigal · 05/04/2018 21:22

Ooh will take a look at that. Maybe download to read on the commute. I have some interesting links on a similar theme on a thread I started last year about body dysmorphia.

IamEarthymama · 05/04/2018 21:32

It's one of the plot devices in Robert Galbraith's third novel Career of Evil, it wasn't highlighted in the TV adaptation
It's chilling

spoonless · 05/04/2018 21:49

I love this article, especially for its perceptive and compassionate avoidance of certainty.

BlytheByName · 05/04/2018 21:53

He certainly went out on a limb with the title.

ohfortuna · 05/04/2018 21:59

Thanks for the article link I will read it also sounds a little bit like this book
www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B00AHEBGH0/ref=dp-kindle-redirect?_encoding=UTF8&btkr=1&tag=mumsnetforum-21

phoolani · 05/04/2018 22:42

Am reading Mad Bad and Sad by Lisa Appignanesi at the moment and there’s no doubt that certain mental disorders become very ‘fashionable’ at various times and also that the way we view certain behaviours changes (quite drastically) over time. It’s a fascinating book.

Winewinewinegin · 05/04/2018 22:44

ThatMs an odd link oh, why does it end with mumsnetforum?

AncientLights · 05/04/2018 22:55

One of the surgeons who amputated legs was none other than Russell Reid who has been convicted for rushing sex change procedures. He does like chopping bits off people, doesn't he?

AncientLights · 05/04/2018 22:57

Sorry he wasn't the surgeon but the psychiatrist. Still seems to be keen on it all though.

ohfortuna · 05/04/2018 23:10

why does it end with mumsnetforum
@Wine, I posted a link to a book on amazon, the forum software added the 'tag=mumsnetforum-21' part, it does that I presume to get some sort of advertising revenue for any products that we mention in our discussion on the forum?

ohfortuna · 05/04/2018 23:13

this is the book
www.goodreads.com/book/show/2605367-from-paralysis-to-fatigue

spoonless · 05/04/2018 23:31

He certainly went out on a limb with the title.

Maybe Dr Hacking suggested it?

ohfortuna · 06/04/2018 10:40

he makes some very interesting points:

our cultural and historical conditions have not just revealed transsexuals but created them. That is, once "transsexual" and "gender-identity disorder" and "sex-reassignment surgery" became common linguistic currency, more people began conceptualizing and interpreting their experience in these terms. They began to make sense of their lives in a way that hadn't been available to them before, and to some degree they actually became the kinds of people described by these terms.

The idea of having one's legs amputated might never even enter the minds of some people until it is suggested to them. Yet once it is suggested, and not just suggested but paired with imagery that a person's past may have primed him or her to appreciate, that act becomes possible. Give the wish for it a name and a treatment, link it to a set of related disorders, give it a medical explanation rooted in childhood memory, and you are on the way to setting up just the kind of conceptual category that makes it a treatable psychiatric disorder. An act has been redescribed to make it thinkable in a way it was not thinkable before. Elective amputation was once self-mutilation; now it is a treatment for a mental disorder. Toss this mixture into the vast fan of the Internet and it will be dispersed at speeds unimagined even a decade ago.

, the fuzziness around the borders of most mental disorders, along with the absence of certainty about their pathophysiological mechanisms, makes them notoriously likely to expand. A look at the history of psychiatry over the past forty years reveals startlingly rapid growth rates for a wide array of disorders—clinical depression, social phobia, obsessive-compulsive disorder, panic disorder, attention-deficit hyperactivity disorder, and body dysmorphic disorder, to mention only a few. In trying to pinpoint the causes for this expansion one could, depending on ideological bent, point to the marketing efforts of the pharmaceutical industry (more mental disorder equals more profits), the greater diagnostic skills of today's psychiatrists, a growing population of mentally disordered Americans, or a cultural tendency to look to psychiatry for explanations of what used to be called weakness, sin, unhappiness, perversity, crime, or deviance. But the fact is that none of these disorders could have expanded as they have unless they looked a lot like ordinary human variation at their edges. Mild social phobia looks a lot like extreme shyness, attention-deficit disorder can look a lot like garden-variety distractibility, and a lot of obsessive-compulsive behavior, as Peter Kramer told me, "verges on the normal." The lines between mental dysfunction and ordinary life are not as sharp as some psychiatrists like to pretend.

spoonless · 06/04/2018 12:21

And it exists within a bubble of experience which is held within a certain set of circumstances. Of course you wouldn't want the cornerstones of that bubble to be disrupted so you would be hostile to questions about conditions of how and why. Pop the bubble and the shared experience falters. It is in essence a cult of experience.*

I've wanted to throw this article in the mix for ages because it offers people a chance to think about bodily dysphorias without the political baggage of gender politics. I don't think that's going to happen here.

For me, stuff e.g. "Unlike objects, people are conscious of the way they are classified, and they alter their behavior and self-conceptions in response to their classification" indicates not that trans is a poppable delusion, but that human experience is a wibbly-wobbly, timey-wimey thing that is partly metaphysical. Which we knew.

*/slight howling/

FencingFightingTorture35 · 06/04/2018 12:35

this is the book
www.goodreads.com/book/show/2605367-from-paralysis-to-fatigue

Edward Shorter is the most abject misogynist. He has made a career out of saying that women with conditions which are hard to diagnose are esentially hysterical and indulging in their illnesses to get out of chores and sex.

Please don't give him a penny of your money. The man is vile.

spoonless · 06/04/2018 14:29

Yes I find him pretty toxic @FencingFightingTorture35.

New posts on this thread. Refresh page
Swipe left for the next trending thread