Ulster Rugby trial -continued

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New thread.

I am getting increasingly irritated (just seen this below a Times article) by the way in which “not guilty beyond a reasonable doubt” becomes synonymous with “innocent”. They weren’t “found innocent”, ffs; the jury simply didn’t feel the prosecution had proved their case beyond a reasonable doubt. Why do some people find that so hard to understand?

I have seen this floating around the internet lately in relation to this case and think it should be much more prominently used when reporting on verdicts.

Can we not pretend this is something "new".

I've been on the side or touch lines of club rugby in Ulster for over 40 years (argghh) Brother, Father and Son play(ed).

"Ladies" were always asked to leave post match drinks after a while back in the 80's when things got bawdy, and the veneer of the gentleman's game was about to be somewhat tarnished. Brother attended another big rugby school in east Belfast allegedly a cut above, an all male preserve and the following Harry Enfield parody about sums them up, I have strong memories of my youth with blokes like this about:

I never got around to worshipping at the altar of the first XV, but I had a giggle at the comment. Many friends did, some treated well others like an accessory. Wandering hands at that age were par for the course, so I'm not going to blame rugby players alone for that.

It was ever thus, rugby players and "totty". It may have become more polarised of late, but the seeds were certainly set back in the day today's blazer wearing administrators were playing.

Rugby is a big deal in NI, it's a society thing too. Rugby is old school, and hasn't moved on really (with the exception of women's rugby - Heifer comments anyone ? www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/43214108 ) There is still a play hard , drink hard, party even harder element to it. Practical "jokes" that would make your eyes water are endemic and are tantamount to bullying. From putting deep heat in each other's jock straps through to debaggings and far worse it all leads to a culture where the bigger the jape the funnier it allegedly is but often there is some poor youngster going home and crying on his Mum's shoulder trying desperately to fit in with his new team mates. "I'm hard", "I play rugby" is a macho sign of respect in the all male circles. We need and God I don't know who "we" in this case is need to make these lads see that actually now pissing in your mates beer glass in public does not make you man, it makes you a bloody idiot and stop turning a "blind eye".

How? I have no idea where to start. You think you've tried to bring kids up to respect women, you think your brother too will treat women with the same respect as his family. They then meet this culture, are drawn into it, and really I haven't a bloody clue who they become then. I've seen the carnage in a rugby club bar at closing time, it's not pleasant.

Germaine Greer has just briefly discussed it on The Wright Stuff but she erred by stating that the girl had consensual sex with a first man before being raped by a second. So I don’t think she has read the details closely but she is arguing how exceedingly difficult it is to secure a conviction for rape especially if the victim has been drinking. Of course MatthewWright was playing devil’s advocate by saying that the other three girls all testified for the men . Did they? I thought their evidence was fairly neutral although rape was not obvious to the girl who peeped in. They did see sex obviously. I wish Germaine had been more incisive there in her comments to argue more deeply.

cleebope

I saw that too

And then i had to switch off as i was getting a bit annoyed

What struck me about that reddit bread is that no one thought about or mentioned the girl at all really. Like to go ‘how awful if it’s true, I hope she’s okay’ or anything. A few ‘rape is awful’ type generalisms, and lots of chat about how awful it would be for their careers etc, the poor guys.

Reddit thread ffs

I didn't see the Wright Show but I think Germaine Greermust have been talking about the Commonwealth swimmer rape trail that is going on atm
www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/commonwealth-games-swimmer-rape-women-sex-friend-latest-otto-putland-a8289861.html

The girl had consensual sex with the swimmer who then passed her on to his mate

kik

Then they were at cross purposes because matthew wright was talking about the ulster case

Its such a shame that it happens so often that people get this confused over the cases

Paddy Jackson has issued a statement through the Press Association - I just heard it on RTE radio news.
I would just be so sad ( and so angry) if my sons sent those awful, misogynistic texts to their friends.
Those men have mothers, sisters, aunts and grannies.
Why does macho culture trump basic human empathy ?

Yes, just saw Jackson's statement on the Irish Times. Massive back peddling following the public backlash. Will be interesting to see if he drops the action against O'Riordan.

His statement is here

I read it, and it makes me want to throw up. It just seems like the words of a man who is finally waking up to the fact that his career may be in jeopardy unless he does some serious PR work. Where were his feelings for the distressed woman the day after the incident? Where were his values and principles the night of the incident, or when sending those messages?

All it says to me - in my opinion - is: I’m sorry I got forced to expose to the world what I am. I’m sorry my career may be in danger.

Not: I’m sorry I’m a misogynist. Not: I’m sorry that I made you bleed and cry and even you taking me to court didn’t really make me think that that was a problem.

Oh well there we go, review done and dusted. They’re both back in. No doubt about it now. Just watch. This was all UR needed to keep him. Jacko finally got good advice.

Notice the stress on him betraying his “family’s” values. His family, particularly his mother, was coming in for heavy criticism. They’re pissed with him.

Definite career saving move - I don't believe him.

Of course it’s not an apology. It’s an “oh shit, I’m really going to get booted off the team, what do I do?” And it’s his family saying “you make it clear in no uncertain terms that we did not raise you like that”

It's at least a week too late for anyone to believe that this is anything less than a cynical self serving attempt to save his own career.

The tone of the initial statement after the verdict told you all you need to know.

Nah, there’ll be plenty of people who will jump on this as the proof he has changed and should be back on the field. UR don’t want to let him go, this is all they need to keep him.

In fact, I wouldn’t be surprised if discussions were had between UR and PJ lawyer along the lines of “what do you need from him in order to let him back?”

When my kids have been squabbling, I've had to separate them and they both claim that the other started it / it wasn't their fault, eventualy they apologise to each other in terms as begrudging and forced as those used in this statement

As pp say, it stinks of "what do you need him to do so that you can bring him back onto the team?"

Oh, will you all just look at what else happened today in relation to the case?

What a coincidence that both statement and advert should come out on the same day. Remarkable, really.

two totally unrelated events. I’m sure that’s a complete coincidence theonly. No way would someone have tipped PJ off about an advert appearing in the BT. No way. That just would never happen

Right! While I was happy about CG issuing a prompt apology and attempt to do better, I’m ANGRY at PJ statement. What an arrogant horrible little weasel. How DARE he think the time for an apology has not expired.

How do we get #IDontBelieveHim trending??

Rugby culture is interesting. NZ has had an inquiry to the rubbish treatment of women.

I have speaking to my DH about this case

He is from NZ and went to a prominent rugby school

He was saying that the parents organised social activities at houses so Saturday night after school rugby was always held at a parents house and they would rotate - they would have alcohol but in a safe environment.

He now thinks the parents did this so they could control the young rugby players, ensure a safe environment. He thinks they took it really seriously.

People in the first 15 were very very big headed and he was friends with some of them.

He honestly believes this was a way for sensible parents to stop anyone getting too drunk or going into clubs and so on.

Women were welcome.

Going to clubs afterwards was actively discouraged apparently by the parents and the school.