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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

What’s wrong with being a trans woman anyway?

42 replies

wrappedupinmyselflikeaspool · 04/04/2018 12:01

I’ve always wondered about this. Why the emphasis on reducing the difference? I get that it’s what trans people want, I understand it’s about external validation, but it’s so inconsistent with the idea that pride is important. Surely pride is all about being who you are? Difference is so important in so many ways. I love difference. I can totally support all kinds of differences. I can’t support describing people as female when they aren’t or lesbians when they are not same sex attracted. I’ve got a lot of respect for those trans women who are proud to be trans. I’ve no respect for the idea we have to describe criminals as female when they are not because it might hurt a non criminal’s feelings. Yes, this post was brought on by the latest example of a violent male being described as an unusual female killer.

OP posts:
OlennasWimple · 04/04/2018 15:43

Step - nope

Ereshkigal · 04/04/2018 15:44

I was always under the impression if a transwoman used a woman's jail it had to be lopped off?

No there is no requirement for any surgery.

Step · 04/04/2018 15:47

FFS... shit isn't jail traumatising enough. No problems with transwoman who have had their bits corrected, but no bloody way ones with willies. That really can't be right.....

OlennasWimple · 04/04/2018 15:53

I think that there is a difference between being proud of being a TW and not wanting to have to disclose it to everyone at every turn.

I am quite sure that transmen and transwomen do suffer discrimination and harassment, both overtly and subtlely, purely because they are different and some people will view them with suspicion as a result. So - for most jobs - it shouldn't be a requirement to disclose trans status as part of a job application or trying to rent a house or getting finance to buy a car, for example. I think that this is the basis to the protection offered by the current GRA regarding who can ask to see GRCs and original birth certificates, and how that information can be used. It's appropriate that there should a sanction against Sam in HR phoning his friends in other parts of the company to gossip that Julie, the new hire, used to be John.

I also think it takes a lot of courage to wear something that can be used against you as a badge of honour: as social mores change, it becomes easier to have a sense of pride (pun intended) in something that makes you a minority, whether that's race, sexuality, disability or something else. When I see TRAs bluster that "transwomen are women, no debate", I see deeply insecure people who are not really comfortable with themselves.

OlennasWimple · 04/04/2018 15:57

News report including pictures and video footage of the shooting suspect (perpetrator? Not sure on the exact legal status) are here

Very female Adam's apple there Hmm

womanformallyknownaswoman · 04/04/2018 16:10

I think Ben Shapiro had it right when he said to the rest of the TV panel he was appearing in "Why are we mainstreaming delusion?" during a discussion about Caitlyn, formally known as Bruce, Jenner being awarded woman of the year award - 2 min clip:

He was then threatened and harassed on TV by a TIM on the panel who's an ex Navy seal plus threatened off camera. He reported the assaults to the police who came back later to him and said yes there had been an assault but TW were a protected minority in California so they wouldn't prosecute - WTF - male violence is caught on camera, excused and minimised, and we all have to pretend it isn't what it is.

1984

CATTamongthepigeons · 04/04/2018 16:14

“When I see TRAs bluster that "transwomen are women, no debate", I see deeply insecure people who are not really comfortable with themselves.“

For some of them, I believe that’s true. Some of them are deeply paranoid ( from trans descriptions of being misgendered.

But for the more savvy, less mentally ill, I have a strong suspicion it’s all about the oppression olympics. Because to be a man is considered inherently privileged. But if they convince people they are women, they can argue they are more oppressed than women are. And therefore argue that their needs trump ours.

CapnHaddock · 04/04/2018 16:33

Coverage of Dana Rivers' arrest: www.ktvu.com/news/woman-charged-with-murdering-three-people-on-friday

Dana Rivers was a prominent TRA but that is not mentioned at all in this article. Only once he was jailed did the press describe him as a trans woman.

Ereshkigal · 04/04/2018 16:44

But if they convince people they are women, they can argue they are more oppressed than women are. And therefore argue that their needs trump ours.

Yes there is definitely an MRA streak running through the trans lobby.

Jayceedove · 04/04/2018 16:46

Olennas, I think you are right about it with the old school transsexuals at least. I have always said on here from the off that I am a trans woman. I understand the biology argument and that 'sex change is impossible' and have not once complained despite being called 'he' and 'man' dozens of times on here for the past 3 weeks - this being pretty much the only time at all anyone has done that in over 40 years.

In day to day life you tend not to say other than woman or be called other than 'she' by all around you as that is the way they have all interacted with you in many cases for their entire life.

It would be harder for them to change that way of thinking than it was for me to just sit here and take constant replies saying he to me.

So it is not, certainly with those who have been around a bit, anything to do with usurping identities or stealing womanhood and all to do with living day to day having long since all but forgotten that you are trans. I only have one family member who was even alive before I transitioned so all of them would have to shift their entire perspective.

Plus the treatment regime for those who went through surgery decades ago was built around blending in, keeping your heads down and just living your life. This was done by mutual consent as there was no legal recognition often for decades (31 years in my case v 14 since the GRA was passed).

So nobody was pressing anyway to call you anything. You told people you knew well and family when old enough. They called you as they found you. No fuss really.

I have never demanded anything of anybody and not hidden who I am when relevant, despite having a GRC and an altered birth certificate. But there is a difference between knowing and accepting biological reality (which I do) and openly declaring to the world I am 'really a man', which is sort of what this would mean.

For some of us that would have effect many others in our lives more than not declaring that would do.

So I live with the accommodation of not asking anyone to call me anything and living with their choice without getting upset. And in relevant discussions using the term trans woman as that is appropriate and descriptive. But in day to day life usually just getting by being thought of and treated as a woman.

Whilst, I should add, being aware of the exemption circumstances where, for instance, in giving medical tests or access to refuges I would never impose myself. Indeed I lost a job as a trainee radiographer because the hospital concerned were worried then (this was the 1970s) that it might create difficulties with patients.

I accepted that with disappointment but understanding and moved on to something else. I suspect today that some trans activist facing this would run to the papers, scream discrimination and sue for thousands in lost income. That would never have occurred to us then in a million years as you lived with happiness at the accommodation society volunteered when there were no rights at all.

In other words, the question you ask is not always as simple to answer as it seems. What matters, I think, is living your life honestly and within the boundaries of both reality and sanity but in a way that sees you explain yourself when necessary.

midgebabe · 04/04/2018 17:37

How is allowing trans gender identity reducing difference? Surely by saying I have a gender identity that is different to your gender identity it is imposing different boxes around people?

My sex was identified at birth. Being fortunate to be born over 50 years ago, my parents did not enforce any gender identity to accompany this biology. That means I have no gender identity. Beyond the obvious physical differences I never think of myself ab funadamentally different from men or women. I have actions and likes that are sometimes associated with one more than the other when people build stereotypes.

I believe that women as a whole are only fundamentally different to men because of biology. I also believe that the biological differences are limited to those directly associated with sexual reproduction. other differences come from enforcement of gender, thus if, as OP states, the purpose of trans is to reduce differences it is self defeating

Patodp · 04/04/2018 18:19

Whenever being unfortunate enough to encounter a TRA on social media repeating the mantra "TWAW TWAW" I try to say something along the lines of

"You should be proud to be a Transwoman. Transwomen are beautiful. Transwomen are not female, they are an incredible type of male, they need recognition for being a male who is trying to break out of restrictive gender stereotypes force upon them"

I tried this on the LGBTLD account person recently (Lib Dems lgbt twitter feed) which is run by a TIM who was boasting about filling out "female" on medical forms because now they got breast implants it means they are female....

gussyfinknottle · 04/04/2018 18:19

Thanks Jaycee. That was an interesting post. You don't appear to be a "running to the papers screaming discrimination " sort of person in that post. FWIW that is an approach I can live with. It is when people impose on others and argue that women are privileged.

JellySlice · 04/04/2018 18:29

Jayceedove and most gender critical people would accept that. Live side-by-side with you and use your preferred pronouns as a matter of courtesy, whatever their opinions.

The fully-transitioning TW I know is much younger than you. I don't really know her political position on this, but by the fact that she is open about who she used to be, and that she dresses and behaves no differently to the average 20-something year old woman (frocks/jeans, modest/low-cut, demure/noisy etc) I suspect that she also just wants to get along in the presentation that she feels is her true and happy self.

Shame that the transactivist agenda is destroying this gentle status quo for both of you. I think most women are perfectly happy to have you join us. It's the TIMs who want to take over and erase us that we object to.

Jayceedove · 04/04/2018 19:00

Jellyslice, I think you will see an increasing number of trans women waking up to what is happening around them and saying something.

Many like me will only slowly be realising what is happening as not being part of any community of trans people you can only go off what is in the papers and this tide of stories that shows what seems to be happening is bound to be causing some minds to focus.

JellySlice · 04/04/2018 19:15

I hope so. But if TWAW will TRAs listen to transwomen any more than they listen to women?

Jayceedove · 04/04/2018 20:40

Jelly I sadly doubt it.

I

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