Writers and gender theory

[Emmags0309]

I’d be really grateful if anyone has who has read books by Judith Butler (feminist academic) can give their opinion of her books before I buy any of them.

I am frustrated by gender theory. I first learned about it on MN, then learned more by looking at the Mermaids, GIRES and Stonewall websites. From this, I realised I was ‘gender critical’. I’m a woman because of my body, but I can’t believe that I have a gender. Using society’s view of gender behaviour as a yardstick against which we assess our personality to decide whether we feel manly or womanly could be quite dangerous and I’m quite concerned that those promoting gender theory seem to be saying that having a gender is the norm.

My sister, an academic who has lectured gender theory said I was talking nonsense when I said that I don’t have a gender. I tried to explain that I don’t believe in gender, and it’s similar to being an atheist who doesn’t have a religion. She said that I do have a gender; my gender is female because I wear skirts and makeup. She said I shouldn’t be “getting my feminism from mumsnet” and I should read works by Judith Butler.

To quote a phrase I’ve learned from MN, I think she drank some Kool Aid, but if posters think Judith Butler might be worth reading I’ll order some of her books.

And surely, if a person is free to have a gender, a person is equally free to reject the concept of gender and say they don’t have one? Is it not socially acceptable to say this?

Thanks for any replies

Can't help with Judith Butler I'm afraid but:

my gender is female because I wear skirts and makeup

Wut? I hardly ever wear skirts and makeup. Am I male?

Somewhere back in the day, BuffyTheReasonableFeminist (great poster, sadly no longer around AFAIK) started a reading group thread about Butler - might be worth ferreting around in advanced search to see if you can find it. I gather from Buffy's struggles (she was an academic so used to reading this sort of stuff) that Butler is not an easy read though!

My gender is female because I wear skirts and makeup.

This is why gender is such bollocks. I wear skirts and makeup some days, jeans, a tshirt and a bare face others. Am I gender fluid? What a load of cobblers.

If you'd like to do a bit more reading OP do, if only so you know who you agree with and you feel a bit more informed when arguing with others. For someone who has supposedly lectured on 'gender theory', however, your sister's analysis seems very shallow and if you had a bit more confidence in your arguments I'm sure you could knock hers out of the water.

All you really have to do is tell your sister that gender is unmeasurable nonsense based only on 'feelings' or stereotypes and you don't accept you have a gender, you have a sex, which is female.

Yes. The skirts and makeup thing made me say “what?” too. Apparently Butler will explain why wearing skirts and makeup (my behaviour) will determine my gender as female. I’m beginning to think that I won’t agree with her, but if anyone can convince me to read it ...

Reading Judith Butler is like wading through treacle, OP! I seriously wouldn't recommend it! It's endless word salad basically saying nothing is real and everything is performance. That's it. The end.

Found it - it wasn't buffy, it was LRDthefeministdragon who started it.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/a2171983-Would-anyone-like-to-talk-about-Judith-Butler-with-me

Do not spend any money! Here you go (and at least fortify yourself with a brandy or something before going in):

lauragonzalez.com/TC/BUTLER_gender_trouble.pdf

eng5010.pbworks.com/f/ButlerBodiesThatMatterEx.pdf

I don’t wear skirts or makeup therefore I am a man?
Forget Judith Butler, your sister is an academic and believes this tosh?
I’d better tell my husband that he’s gay...

'Gender is performative.' 'The way we walk and talk consolidates an impression of being a man or a woman.' 'Nobody is a gender from the start.' 'Gender is culturally formed, but it's also a domain of agency or freedom. It's important to resist the violence that is imposed by ideal gender norms, especially against those who are non-confirming in their gender presentation.'

Emmags0309 I found this interview by Deep Green Resistance radio with Dr Susan Cox very useful when trying to understand the whole post modernist Judith Butler show. It’s long, but I found it interesting and clear.
m.youtube.com/watch?v=DWXHbrt3kvU
Rebecca Reilly Cooper is a philosopher who has written a lot on gender issues and again is thoughtful, and brings insight.
Much more useful than reading Butler, IMHO!

Thanks for the replies. I’ll look for the Butler thread. It’s hard to discuss things in my family to be honest. I made my point about about agency and how I’m personally entitled to reject an unproven concept/philosophy and I got told “Well you haven’t even read Judith Butler. Now, let’s talk about something else”.

It's important to resist the violence that is imposed by ideal gender norms

Okay, but does this mean if a woman doesn't conform to ideal gender norms she isn't a woman? Isn't that enforcing gender? Still .

Ok according to this dumbed-down video, Butler accepts that gender is a social stereotype and that we'd be better off rejecting it. It seems to me that she's not arguing for TRA ideology (e.g. if you subscribe to female stereotypes then you're a woman).

But on the Trans Advocate site she argues 'No matter whether one feels one’s gendered and sexed reality to be firmly fixed or less so, every person should have the right to determine the legal and linguistic terms of their embodied lives'. So she thinks that gender identity is a choice, and for instance a male can become female if he acts according to female gender stereotypes.

Is it just me or is she contradicting herself?

Judith Butler’s main point is that gender is performative. It’s not a performance by the individual but gender is performed by society through the individual. Understanding this means that the individual can then choose their own relationship with gender and that is where agency and freedom comes in. Does that make any sense?

They seem to think that clothing makes the man but for some reason (misogyny) it does not make the woman.

I suggest you read some reviews of Butlers word salad and then read Dworkin instead. Or Jeffreys or Spender.

For someone who has supposedly lectured on 'gender theory' however, your sister's analysis seems very shallow
^^
This
I used to lecture on gender theory and I can quite categorically state that i did not once inform my students that they were the female gender because they wore skirts and makeup. How ridiculous.

Agree re Judith Butler. There are less turgid reads I feel.

The notion of biological sex. I had this said to me by a trans identified male. My female biology is an opinion. The fact is a penis is female, that is not a notion. It's not only shite, people have been brainwashed into believing this nonsense.

I've just been out sailing with the female admiral of our yacht club, she was crippled with period pain. We all had exactly the same sailing gear on, ten men and women, for four days. Anyone telling me that she is anything but a competent female in pain due to her biology is just naive to the point of idiocy.

Materialist
Thanks for the link, fab read.
Mouthtrousers
Yes absolutely, anyone saying that female biology doesn’t matter CLEARLY never had period pain/pregnancy scare/fertility issues/pregnancy/miscarriages/ breastfeeding/the fucking menopause
That shit is real

Is it just me or is she contradicting herself?

No , not just you- she is -insofar as anyone can make any sense of what she is on about.

www.denisdutton.com/bad_writing.htm

Harsh, but probably deserved.

Oh I love Judith Butler. She’s the opposite of a gender essentialist - she is all about gender being a social construct rather than anything innate, and that people should find their own relationship with their gender presentation (ie if you are a woman and want to wear trousers and work as a bricklayer, that does not make you any less female and it is only society that tells you otherwise).

She has had to tread a very narrow tightrope to avoid being accused of TERFism (because if gender is a social construct, how can trans women possibly have ladybrains?) She still works in a US university, which may explain some of her more cagey trans-inclusive comments recently. But she certainly doesn’t say that you are only a woman because you wear a skirt. More that you only wear a skirt because that is how we signal womanhood in our society.