Meet the Other Phone. Flexible and made to last.

Meet the Other Phone.
Flexible and made to last.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Self ID in other countries

36 replies

CisMyArse · 01/04/2018 22:24

Has it caused any issues? In Ireland, Malta etc? I think my resolve is wavering to be honest and for my own sanity, I'm finding myself stepping back but also thinking about countries where Self ID is legislated. If there aren't any reported problems, then our voices will be taken with an even smaller pinch of salt.

OP posts:
midgebabe · 02/04/2018 11:07

So it is necessary to prove increased problems for women before anybody will try to find solutions to trans-people problems that are not just shoe-horning them into the category of women? Yet the very processes of the law make it almost impossible to identify when the trans laws may have been abused?

If we go the route of never distinguishing between women and trans, we will never be able to see if e.g. the rate of violent attacks is much greater against trans than women. This would maker difficult to put the correct protections and changes in place.

How would we prove that trans suicide rates really do go down if they are categorised as women, there may be other problems that need sorting out.

However, if that is what they want, then the question becomes..would this impact on women's safety, either directly ( bad transpeople) or indirectly ( bad men abusing the law, increased misogyny in society )

Clearly for the 1 in 5,women who have been subjected to serious sexual violence, it is usual that they have psychological hangovers that mean they can be traumatised by male sights, sounds and smells . Now we have to learn to live with men, but as a women, I would say that the trauma is more likely to be felt when we are in isolated areas, getting undressed, or had a recent crime committed against us. I don't think this needs proving surely!

Clearly transwomen may have similar feelings when exposed to men e.g. In changing areas, so I would expect them of all people to totally understand this, and therefore accept that an alternative solution is needed.

Focus now on Canada, because I think that is closest to us, and I know that Irish law does still allow to distinguish sex from gender

before the law change, a one off indication that people did try to abuse the self ID principal
www.lifesitenews.com/news/sexual-predator-jailed-after-claiming-to-be-transgender-in-order-to-assault

Note that there are other one off examples, such as the uk women's prison where an apparent transgender person raped many of the inmates. Making it easier to present as trans would increase the probability of this happening.

The question here is how much does it increase the probability of such abuse and how does that trade with the problems that trans people can face, such as the probability that they are raped in a male Prison? The answer to me is that a trade is wrong…we need a solution that protects both groups of people . Note that Canada has only just started o put trans women into women's prisons so there is no data there

After the law has changed in Canada people on here are saying that it is difficult for the press to report this accurately, this is evidence that there is still tension
torontosun.com/2017/06/13/toronto-spa-takes-heat-for-stance-on-transgender-women/wcm/9ac8eba7-e2a8-40e3-8604-20381aef7cdc

There is also evidence that Canadian boundaries are being drawn via legal process. Note this started way before the law change but concluded after the law change
www.rapereliefshelter.bc.ca/learn/news/transexual-loses-fight-womens-shelter

Whilst it is too soon to make cause and effect judgements on the data, if we are forced, it is clear that the crime stats from Canada are not consistent with society's becoming safer for women in recent years but the data is NOT inconsistent with society becoming more dangerous for women. I really hope that we do not need to see a significant increase in sexual violence against women before we are taken seriously. Also reference the target Study about voyerism in changing rooms ?

CharlieParley · 02/04/2018 16:36

@AmygdalaeOnFire I would advise against going into the page and editing it. Yes, the phrase "assigned at birth" is now political but was actually used frequently in the 60s together with "discerned" "observed" and "recognised". The problem only arises because certain lobby groups have expanded the correct usage of this word from medicine where it exclusively refered to intersex people and appropriated it for themselves and now use it for all births.

Editing this out without evidence proving that the medical literature predominantly uses "oberved at birth" (which it doesn't precisely because this issue is most often discussed only in relation to intersex or transgender people) will swiftly lead to a reverse edit and possibly even a ban for vandalism for the editor.

AmygdalaeOnFire · 02/04/2018 17:03

@CharlieParley thanks for that! I don’t want to be banned. It does seem that if the original author can use “assigned” because it was used in the 60s that they could equally use another. But I shan’t be doing anything to get me banned for “transphobic” vandalism.

westcoastnortherneragain · 03/04/2018 02:44

nationalpost.com/news/canada/federal-transgender-inmates-to-be-housed-addressed-according-to-gender-identity the comments on here are interesting to read

Pratchet · 08/04/2018 22:49

CisMyArse: there is an enormous volume of this kind of material directed at young gay people but mainly lesbians across social media. It's transactivists bullying and shaming lesbians into accepting penis. They insist that exclusive single sex attraction is transphobic, thus morally unacceptable.

Self ID in other countries
Self ID in other countries
Pratchet · 08/04/2018 22:51

I could post scores of examples but I won't as I don't think it's MN etiquette. A search for cotton ceiling or #cottonceiling will uncover the details. Also I will link an article.

Pratchet · 08/04/2018 22:55

This is by transexual Miranda Yardley who we all know and love

Gender trendier explanation also very good

Worth noting that one European lesbian group has divorced itself from the GBT entirely, for this reason.

Pratchet · 08/04/2018 22:58

Also anyone can test it: go on Twitter and ask Stonewall, or LibDem LGBT, or Greens LBGT, or Labour, or any transactivist, if exclusive same sex attraction is right or wrong. You will get tumbleweed.

TallulahWaitingInTheRain · 09/04/2018 07:32

This thread Cis

midgebabe · 09/04/2018 08:46

There seems to be a significant variation around the world as to the level of misogyny in different societies, which I think plays into this discussion

www.nationmaster.com/country-info/stats/Crime/Violent-crime/Rapes-per-million-people
This is the reported rates of rape in various countries

The uk is not in the list but using the figures from ONS England and Wales would be 7th in the list, ahead of Canada-95, Ireland -37 and Argentina-49. No ranking for malta

If I have time I will also try and get a handle on the underreporting rates to see if if significantly changes the order . South Africa , number 1 , estimates 17% are reported, the uk 34%. ( for rape, lower for all sexual violence)

totallywired · 09/04/2018 09:01

I started a similar thread here - www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3189795-Issues-with-gender-self-ID-in-other-countries

Someone posted this link which was maybe the sort of thing you are looking for?
nounequalrights.com/information/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/The-Threat-to-Women-and-Girls-Illustrated-1.pdf

New posts on this thread. Refresh page
Please create an account

To comment on this thread you need to create a Mumsnet account.

This thread is closed and is no longer accepting replies. Click here to start a new thread.