Girlguiding's trans policy - join our group to lobby GG for change

[AgnesBadenPowell]

Some of you will have seen my previous threads here and in AIBU about Girlguiding's transgender policy. I, and many other Leaders (and parents), feel that they've got this one wrong. I've got a thread on AIBU about this but also wanted to post here too as there was so much interest and support.

Since we highlighted the issue of mixed accommodation without parental consent, and the suggestion that gender nonconforming girls get 'managed out', Girlguiding has been quietly updating the policy on the website, to try and accommodate parental concern that they didn't anticipate. This still doesn't address the underlying issues and there was no announcement of the changes; I only discovered them by comparing cached pages with the live webpage.

Fair Play For Women has put together an article comprehensively setting out the issues in black and white, asking for them to be addressed. They worked on this not just with me, but a number of other concerned Leaders and parents.

You can read a one page fact sheet that summarises our concerns here:

https://fairplayforwomen.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/FPFWGirlguidess_factsheet.pdf

If you'd like to see the full article, which discusses our concerns in detail and is fully referenced, you can do that here:

https://fairplayforwomen.com/guide-leaders-call-for-halt/

If you share our concerns and would like to support this initiative, there is a (public) Facebook group where parents and Leaders can talk about it and add their voice. If we don't speak, no one will hear us:

https://m.facebook.com/groups/902343833223644

Policies which refuse to address the safeguarding of children need to be urgently questioned and clarified. At the moment, many organisations are being given bad advice, getting ahead of the law and misinterpreting the current legislation. Because, yet again, they are only getting one side of the story.

We want all children to benefit from Girlguiding, transgender or otherwise.

The policies need to reflect that everyone should be taken into account, without one group being prioritised to the detriment of another.

Feel free to tweet and otherwise share the links above so as many people as possible hear about this.

And finally, thank you to Fair Play For Women and the leaders and parents who contacted me after reading the other threads. I would never have been able to do this alone

I don’t have social media (apart from professional) accounts, how can I get involved?

@CircleSquareCircleSquare probably best to PM me. I'm "out" and happy to pass on an email address so we can stay in touch that way.

I am also "out" and it feels like a breath of fresh air to tell the truth!

It's a great article that I have just forwarded to my daughter's Rainbow leader. Neither her or her team were even aware this was going on and were shocked when I brought it up this week. I hope they feel strongly enough to voice their concerns to the GGA.
My daughter loves Rainbows, it would be so disappointing if they continue with this self-identity nonsense whilst still continuing to say how important all-girl spaces are. How did we get here??

Good work Agnes.

From a quick scoot on twitter, I believe they are trying to get this trending with the hashtag #sisterstoallguides

Looks like people are tweeting @JulieBentley @girlguiding and @Chief_Guide

I must admit I had a chuckle at that bit in the long FPFW article that said "It’s interesting to note that Julie Bentley was previously the CEO of the Family Planning Association; we find it hard to believe she doesn’t know what ‘female’ means."

What on earth is she thinking???

Someone just told me on the AIBU thread I also have running that the link to the fact sheet doesn't work. So I'm trying again!

https://fairplayforwomen.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/FPFWGirlguidess_factsheet.pdf

Think you got a double s in the title guidess

Bumpity bump!

Yes I'm also amazed that the former CEO of the family planning association and now CEO of girlguiding does not apparently know that being female is not about an inner sense of self

Agnes, I'm chuckling, I hopped over the family planning assoc website, they have a section called 'Women's bodies' - I'm shocked they've not been shut down for transphobia!

"The reproductive system in women is made up of external and internal organs. These are found in the lower abdomen, the part of the body below the umbilicus (tummy button). This area is often referred to as the pelvic area. They include:

The external organs
vaginal entrance
urethral opening
labia (vaginal lips)
clitoris.
The external organs are known as the vulva.

The internal organs
ovaries
fallopian tubes
uterus (womb)
cervix
vagina."

How on earth has Julie gone from that to "Gender - Where a person sits on the spectrum between male and female; defined by social, cultural and internal factors".

Erm, she'll be telling us babies come from the stork next, and that 'people' need abortions.

Have pm-ed you Agnes.

Just wanted to say bloody well done. I think it’s fantastic you have managed to halt the tide by speaking up. I hope GGHQ take note

Dd wanted to join guides. She has communication difficulties, possibly ASD. She would not be able to communicate her feelings due to her disability which is also a protected category. Have guiding thought of how they are going to make reasonable adjustment to communicate with parents of disabled children who are unable to communicate themselves to express their discomfort with male bodied children.

Well done, Girl Guides was one of my first real peak trans moments.

added that last post of mine for you as an example, not to complain to you. I hate posting from my phone as I have fat fingers, dodgy autocorrect, and poor eyesight.

@BlackeyedSusan

Dd wanted to join guides. She has communication difficulties, possibly ASD. She would not be able to communicate her feelings due to her disability which is also a protected category. Have guiding thought of how they are going to make reasonable adjustment to communicate with parents of disabled children who are unable to communicate themselves to express their discomfort with male bodied children.

This is one of my fears as a Leader. That a girl can not communicate her discomfort herself. That might be because of disability; it could also be because she's scared of being labelled a bigot or a transphobe or any of the other names women who believe in biological sex get called.

GG have decided that the needs of the trans child are paramount and no disclosure will ever take place. I'm not allowed to tell any parent about the presence of a trans child; if you came to me with concerns then I'd have to refer you to my county commissioner but they won't tell you either. You get some "re-education" no doubt and maybe an offer of a separate accommodation for your daughter.

In the Fair Play For Women article we've tried to show how GG is treating gender transition as the top protected characteristic. I would argue that's unethical and possibly unlawful.

Do please come over to our FB group if you'd like to. We have nearly 100 members now. It would be good to have your insight as we plan our next steps in lobbying GG

m.facebook.com/groups/902343833223644?tsid=0.3572096043493952&source=result

Thank you for doing this...

Agnes, I just wanted to say that you are marvellous for picking this up. I have sons, not daughters so no fish to fry here. But I was a brownie, then a guide, then a ranger guide. I bloody loved GG, it was very important to me as a child.

Have guiding thought of how they are going to make reasonable adjustment to communicate with parents of disabled children who are unable to communicate themselves to express their discomfort with male bodied children.

They seem to be under the impression that they are not allowed to disclose the trans status of a boy.

The effect is that small girls (from age 5, is it?) will be responsible for the risk assessment of their own situation.

Children, who are now believing that it's actually possible to change sex.

Making little girls responsible for justifying boundaries, that should never be called into question, is horrendous.

And encouraging those little girls to have agency over their own risk, is sinister.

I don't for a single second believe that this is what the Girl Guides think they are advocating for.

I'm so glad you're doing this, OP. We must do everything we can to help people see sense.

Thanks for the messages of support. I was also a brownie, guide, a young leader, and a unit helper before becoming a rainbow leader. Guiding is an organisation I love. So many girls have had great experiences and part of that was down to the single sex nature of the organisation.

I cannot believe this same organisation is now sending template emails to anyone who contacts them once too often, to say that GG will not respond to any further correspondence and implying that GG is just more accepting and inclusive than the person writing in with concerns

I talked to my girls about this yesterday and they were horrified that there might be girls who are actually boys in Guides. They have both been very active in Rainbows and Brownies but don't currently go to Guides and with all this going on they won't be going either.
The works has gone crazy.

*world

I cannot believe this same organisation is now sending template emails to anyone who contacts them once too often, to say that GG will not respond to any further correspondence and implying that GG is just more accepting and inclusive than the person writing in with concerns shockangry

They will be frantically seeking advice from the very people who gave it to them in the first place.

And we all know that advice ends with #nodebate.

Something that they are slowly realising isn't actually the clincher they fondly thought it was.

They will be frantically seeking advice from the very people who gave it to them in the first place

I really think this is what has happened, they've paid an external agency to advise them, have been wrongly advised, have run back when there was some pushback and are being advised to hold firm against 'transphobes' - which is not our position at all. All gender variant and GNC FEMALES should find a warm welcome in GG.

It seems like the trans lobby is a closed loop. I'm on tenterhooks to see what will happen when they realise they are potentially in breach of EA2010, instead of upholding it as they've clearly been told.

They seem to be under the impression that they are not allowed to disclose the trans status of a boy

And helpfully the fair play for women article completely debunks that assertion quite clearly. And it actually illustrates that whoever has pushed that as an absolute has their own agenda. Certainly not one with the wellbeing of the girls/young women affected by this policy change.

I'm enormously grateful that the OP and other guide captains are taking a stand on this. My DD is one of 2 guiders picked to go on a camp in may & at this point I've no way to know whether my 12yr old DD & her 12yr old friend will be expecting to share their tent/shower/changing facilities/toilets with a trans identifying trans IDing male 'guider'. My DD just started her periods last month & would be utterly mortified & extremely uncomfortable if she took her period when away & had to go through that with a trans IDing male guider around or male guide leader to go to if help was needed. That stuff does matter more than a gender non conforming boy who wants to be validated as a girl by sharing a tent or shower or changing facilities or toilets with my very shy, not yet assertive 12yr old DD.