So it looks like Scot Rail have also drunk the Koolaid...

[Destinysdaughter]

Just saw this on Twitter and it would seem that the sleeper train to Scotland allows, in single sex overnight cabins, pp to share with pp who self identify with that gender. As shown here. FFS. I don't think I'd feel comfortable with this at all and it's yet another example of women's spaces being erased.

I would definitely be unhappy about sharing with someone of the opposite sex, regardless of how they identify.

Wonder what training and guidance is given to the train staff who check tickets on the platform? Presume they already have guidance to say "no, random bloke, you can't share with a woman even if you ticked 'woman' on the booking form" - what's step #2 if random bloke says "but my gender identity is female?"

I also stay in youth hostel dorms occasionally, but only single sex ones

Have you read the YHA guidance on this?

www.yha.org.uk/staying-yha/accessibility

Transgender guests

We welcome transgender guests to stay with us and we are working hard to improve our services and facilities to make sure that they are inclusive.

We give our staff awareness training to make sure that they can confidently give great customer service to everyone. When we make improvements to our hostels, we consider how we can make them a safe and comfortable environment for a diverse mix of guests.

Accommodation & facilities

YHA hostels typically offer a mixture of private bedrooms and shared single sex dormitories. Some hostels offer bedrooms with en-suite toilet and shower facilities. Other hostels have shared toilets and showers.

Transgender guests are welcome to use the accommodation and facilities which match their gender identity.

I've shared with a strange woman on this train. It was awkward. I turned up not knowing this would happen and when I opened the cabin door there she was in her nightie! They are tiny, tiny cabins -- very intimate. It would be a huge shock to be in there with a strange bloke.

I was the one who first questioned the Sleeper. I live near the end of one route and people I know use it regularly. DS came back from a Uni interview but, at 16, I paid the extra so he did not have to share - much cheaper for him with Railcard.

DD and I came back home from London on it recently - hence the enquiry.

I have asked twice and had two (similar) replies. Website says sex. Booking form says gender. E-mail says self I D gender.

It is (to me) across some of the most remote landscapes in Britain, in the night. In a lockable cabin.

And even if rape or assault are unlikely, why should I, or any other woman, have to undress and sleep in close proximity to a strange man so he feels he is a woman.

Fucked up world.

It is a fucked up world. I would share with another woman who is a stranger, I would not want to share with a man even if he is identifying as a female. Because he is still male. No fucking way.

I wonder what would happen if you invoked the non-binary idea?

TRA: I identify as a woman, therefore I can share a cabin with this woman.
Woman: Well, I identify as two spirit, therefore I can only share with another two spirit person
Scotrail: Well, you ticked “female” when you registered ...
Woman: Because there wasn’t an option for anything other than binary gender options, which is transphobic!

Communal accommodation is one of the single sex exemptions under the EA.

I imagine a lot of companies etc don’t actually believe the TRA line but are scared of a campaign against them by TRAs and it making the media. I am convinced a lot acceptance of these issues is done out of fear and groupthink.

How can such policies survive risk management/assessment scrutiny?

Vagina

I agree. It's duplicitous Virtue Signalling

Imagine if the companies and organisations that choose do this put out statements that said

'Ladies, here at ScotsRail we believe that in 2018 the risk of violence, rape and sexual assault against women no longer exists. To celebrate this we will be making all our sleeper carriages into mixed accommodation.'

Because this is basically what they are saying if anyone can self id their gender identity.

I doubt there’s been any risk assessment. Would bet money that they just think “gender as self identified” is the more up-to-date and modern way to say “sex”. Haven’t considered for a second what kind of repurcussions there could be.

I see the trans activists on Twitter are congratulating them for it, though, and calling women bigots for having a problem with the policy. Which is just fucking stupid - even if you think every trans person is an absolute angel and no woman would care sleeping in the same room as a male-bodied stranger, this policy has no way to prevent creepy men from capitalising on “yes, I’m a woman, me!” to get access to changing/sleeping women. How are you Really Truly Genuinely women and don’t get or care about the absolute basics of the kind of predatory behaviour women have to live with?

How are you Really Truly Genuinely women and don’t get or care about the absolute basics of the kind of predatory behaviour women have to live with

I would imagine there are many transwomen who have also faced this predatory behaviour from men so they should be able to understand the issues.

Looking further into the YHA policy from 2013, they say that someone who is 'pre-op' should be offered a single room at dormitory rates if available and if they are 'post-op', they should be allowed in the single sex dorm.

I don't know if that's still their policy and it also begs an obvious question that is put on staff.

The same goes for the single sex accommodation on the trains. It's very easy to have a policy saying they are single sex - but how is it going to be managed practically.

would imagine there are many transwomen who have also faced this predatory behaviour from men so they should be able to understand the issues.

But that's not the case is it? It seems to me that the majority of trans people support the move towards unconditional self ID in all situations. And this is the kind of thing that policy means.

t seems to me that the majority of trans people support the move towards unconditional self ID in all situations

What makes you think that?

Because apart from a very few most of the ones I come across on social media say they want self identification to get a GRC. And that gatekeeping is wrong. Are you saying that they don't actually think these things, or that it's not representative of the majority of trans people?

I don’t think the number of trans people pushing for unconditional self-ID is a particularly large group. It’s just a very vocal one, and one that benefits from playing into deeper cultural currents of misogyny, allowing certain men to yell at women and dismiss feminism while dressing it up as a progressive stance.

Because apart from a very few most of the ones I come across on social media say they want self identification to get a GRC

Social media is not always representative of the views of the actual groups talking on social media.

(hard to tell how representative it is among trans people, especially now that the “trans umbrella” is so broad and continuing to widen, so I won’t comment on that.)

I wonder what would happen if you invoked the non-binary idea?

This is the problem with conflating sex and gender ID isn’t it? You can’t have gender based segregation because there is no definition of anything. And where will agender people go?

hard to tell how representative it is among trans people, especially now that the “trans umbrella” is so broad and continuing to widen, so I won’t comment on that.)

Yes this is the problem. I think there is an assumption here of what "trans" means. Which doesn't align with the trans organisations' accepted one including crossdressers, genderfluid, non binary etc.

I think there is an assumption here of what "trans" means

Indeed.

I'm going with the Stonewall definition, given that it is that which is being used to write policy. Any problem with that?