Ulster Rugby Rape Trial - Not guilty to all charges

[Quimby]

Verdict just returned
Not guilty to all four accused, all unanimous decisions.

Didn't one of the messages say 'what school?'. I took that to mean what school did she go to, i.e. they actually thought she was still school aged

Interestingly the one time I was raped was by a long term boyfriend, both sober and in a house and room I had slept in hundreds of times.

Yes treacle, that’s how I understood it too.

Gang rape of teen girls at house parties were not rare when I was a teen in the sixties.

I don't think so treacle.

I think it's the old NI (and Irish tbh) method of identifying someone - surname, what school they went to, what religion they are; Irish communities are so small that the chances are that if you don't know someone, if you can find out those things you will know someone who knows them, so can work out who they are, if that makes sense.

An extra point that hasn't been mentioned much is their lack of interest in whether the woman they were having sex with was enjoying it; surely the mark of a "great shagger" would be someone who was good at sex. Or is that all irrelevant these days?

It wouldn't have mattered if she was 'underage' though. Sickening.

I thought she had allegedly already fended one of the players downstairs, had decided she wanted to leave the party, went back upstairs because she realised she had left her clutch bag in the bedroom and then got (allegedly) grabbed from behind by him - he had followed her upstairs.

So she had not been kissing him in his bedroom, voluntarily. But correct me if I am wrong!

This is the full reported transcripts of text messages:

www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/uk-world-news/worst-night-ever-raped-full-12272939

She said she had kissed him voluntarily but then didn't want to go further because he didn't know her name, then that the atmosphere changed and she wanted to go home, hence she went to get her bag.

Maryz I hadn't thought of it like that, with the school. Although tbh even as a N Ireland person I don't remember people in that context (partying in our late teens and early twenties) as being interested in what school anyone went to. Although it certainly has always featured heavily everywhere I have ever worked.

I agree its hard to advise on practical measures - hence my despair. But I would now be wary about house parties, gangs of men egging each other on, suggest that a girl should really knew the guy before kissing him alone, if really drunk etc etc. Its frustrating that women have to adopt some sort of Victorian morality to avoid getting attacked, but this case has left me feeling that girls are extremely vulnerable even when they might be lulled into a false sense of security...

Can we not speculate on what school she went to.

Otherwise, I will report this thread.

treaclesoda, thanks for clarifying, that makes sense. Poor, poor girl.

MaryZ, Zibbidoo- excellent points on the messages between the men about how upset she was and the lack of curiosity re: cause of her distress- because they already knew..

Complainant: “He’d already tried it on earlier and I firmly told him where to go."

Complainant: "The next thing I'm bent over the bed"

There was blood from the tear in her vaginal wall, on his trousers.

Can we not speculate on what school she went to.

Nobody is. They are discussing the context of why that was a question. As in, current school = underage, vs school she went to, as a means of labelling her in some way.

No one on this thread wants to identify this young woman in any way.

Zibbidoo - and sorry to hear about what happened to you. It feels like women are never safe.. if even a teenage snog at a party can end in disaster.

There are so many points those men could have been grilled on. Why not ask them how exactly they knew she was up for sex, what foreplay had they engaged in, what did she do to let them know she wanted to have sex, did she look scared or happy, how did they know she was aroused. I mean the court case seemed graphic enough so why is the woman’s arousal not deemed an important factor? Why is it purely a question of “consent” and not a question of wanting and enjoying sex? Is womens’ pleasure so removed from societies concept of an acceptable sexual encounter?

I think it was no more than a means of trying to suss who she was and what her social connections were (mutual friends, acquaintances etc), to try and gauge what she might do next. You know what it's like, two degrees of separation here at most.

Good point Zib and sadly another one that was missing from the prosecutions argument.

In no way was I speculating on what school she went to, I have no idea and don't want to know. It was just a reference to what they said amongst themselves.

CarrotyO - Precisely.

I am going to write to each of the sponsors- eg Kingspan, BT, Bank of Ireland, EY, BMW.... Each of these companies should have policies on social responsibility, diversity and zero tolerance of harassment of any kind.
Whilst the verdict of the jury is that it could not be shown beyond all reasonable doubt that rape took place, the civil standard for sexual harassment/ misconduct is on the balance of probabilities.
Given the men's own evidence from their whatsapp messages ( which they did not dispute, except to argue they didn't really mean it) they were aware that things were not going well for the victim and showed a callous disregard for her welfare.

As a result of #metoo, many men have been dismissed from positions of power on the basis of women coming forward with accounts of sexual misconduct. Those dismissals did not often take place after trials or court cases. The women were believed and the companies decided there was too much commercial risk defending these men.

So let's talk about commercial risk.

Do these sponsors really want their brands to be associated with men with such (allegedly) repugnant and abusive views/ treatment of very young women? The sponsorship contracts should have a termination clause which states that where an association with an organisation or individual brings the other party into disrepute or causes brand damage, the deal can be immediately terminated.

Think we should follow the money...

Seriously, rein it in.

This is Northern Ireland we are talking about.

Rein what in? Are you seeing an alternative conversation here that the rest of us are not party to?

There are just so many inconsistencies in the accused stories.

McIlroy always maintained the complainant had performed oral sex on him. The prosecution alleged he had got his story mixed up (the ones the "lads" could have concocted at the lunch meet up to discuss what to do) and had used Olding's storyline.

Olding and Jackson both deny that McIlroy ever appeared in the bedroom and the complainant says he exposed himself and she managed to flee.

Someone out of the three "lads" is lying on that point.

Jackson claims the complainant performed oral sex on him and when Olding came in and she moved on to fellating Olding that he went round the back and touched the complainant's vagina. So how come she came to have a laceration (how many women have ever had sex that resulted in that?). The complainant (hate that word) claimed Jackson had penetrated her with his penis and also tried to insert his hand - why was he not ruthlessly questioned about that??

The defence continually harped on about every little inconsistency in the complainant's statements but the accused seem to have had a very easy ride - was the prosecution just Se?

Elendon Are you deliberately trying to derail this thread? You aren’t making any sense.

This article in the Irish Times is a decent summary of the trial:
www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/inside-court-12-the-complete-story-of-the-belfast-rape-trial-1.3443620