A newspaper article on the issue of sport

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A level playing field? https://interactives.stuff.co.nz/2018/03/a-level-playing-field/?cid=app-iPhone

Not sure if the link worked (forgive me it's my first time linking, and I'm on my phone so can't work out how to give it a pretty little hyperlink instead) but a new article from NZ (home country of trans weightlifter Laurel Hubbard) which manages to shoehorn in that mtf are actually subject to disadvantage competing against a field of natal women. In downhill mountain biking - oh right!

That's cool. Obv I am lacking an interesting title. Or link. Or useful information/ presentation of anything

That's interesting to see how they test for hormone levels. But surely any tests should be more comprehensive than that? I'm not a science person, it would be helpful if someone could suggest whether testosterone levels would be enough to create a fair playing field.

Given the climate it is easy to see scenario when the people who may suggest more testing is needed would be silenced. The guidance starts from the principle that people should be able to play in the gender they identify as which I would have thought tips the balance against rigorous examination of the facts.

VO2 max, skeletal differences -primarily pelvis, heart size all remain male as I undestand it.

This stood out for me
"She says dealing with her dysphoria and getting her appearance to a point where she passes in public as female is far more important to her than bike racing."

So they should choose not to compete.
People may not choose to be transgender but they do choose to take drugs & they do choose to compete in a category which gives them an advantage.

Also how many athletes will be pressured into reducing their testosterone levels sufficiently to be able to compete as female - sport is big business & some countries put great importance on sucess in sport in a world arena such as the Olympics.

which manages to shoehorn in that mtf are actually subject to disadvantage competing against a field of natal women. In downhill mountain biking - oh right!

This is part of the strategy of any Big Lie: to tell such an outrageous falsehood that it disorients the rational mind by its sheer absurdity.

If you want to sneak an untruth by people - say, that it is fair for men to compete against women in sports - you don't just tell that lie and then wait for it to be debated and then refuted. You make a claim so patently counter to reality, such that it reverses reality itself, that people feel they have lost all bearings by which they can measure truth.

Thus, advocates of putting men in women's sport don't just claim that men have no advantage in sports by virtue of their male biology, they actually claim that male athletes are at a disadvantage against female athletes. This is a clear reversal of what everyone knows to be true about sports and sexual dimorphism, which has the effect of causing people to doubt everything they thought they knew about the subject, and they end up assuming that they must be terribly ignorant if they can have been this wrong about what they had previously thought to be an obvious fact of life.

The political advance of the transgender movement as a whole relies on the strategy of the Big Lie.

Yes, an interesting article, thanks OP. I used to read with interest about how they measured testosterone levels etc but I think after reading that I actually don't give much of a shit any more. A man on drugs that make them a bit rubbish at sport =/= a woman.

Also at the term "XY female".

Also, good point about the Big Lie, Donkey

It just seems so absurd that they can tell these "facts" with a straight face, and as PP said make a claim so grandiose in its incredulity that the actual truth becomes somehow lost or not as bad.

I feel so sorry for the other competitors worrying about their funding drying up now that "Kate" is on the scene and trouncing them. As a muscular body mass gives competitors a complete advantage in this sport how they can deny that being born a male, and growing up with that physiology, as well as being used to competing against other men, puts Kate at any kind of advantage is incredible. It screams Emperors New Clothes and the officials falling over themselves to be complementary and fawning for fear of being called out as transphobic for saying "hang on, this isn't right".

You have a right to trans if you so desire; you do not have a right to continue competing in a high level of sport against a field where you now clearly have an advantage.

This bit stood out for me:

A 2016 UK-based study, which reviewed 31 national and international transgender sporting policies, found most were unfairly discriminating against transgender people when there was no scientific evidence that they had any athletic advantage.

If there's no athletic advantage between males and females, why are they segregated by sex in the first place?

And no scientific evidence? You mean apart from all the officially recorded finishing times, lengths, heights, lifts, distances etc in every sporting event ever?

Donkey, love your Big Lie post. Would you consider starting a thread in AIBU, AIBU to think everything we are being told nowadays is a Big Lie? Or some such?

It's dishonest of them to say they haven't been through puberty as they took blockers when they are clearly taller than the women. How did they bypass puberty but have that growth spurt?

I'm hoping there are many more of these examples at tge next olympics. I want it out in public, I want it discussed, I want the rules to be reconsidered.

I feel sad for those girls and women having their sport ruined.

I was thinking this morning about the trans women are women mantra.

I developed asthma quite late in life and was very surprised to see the difference in peak flow (lung capacity?) - the amount and force in which you can expel a big breath quickly - as being so very different between the sexes.

This article is interesting as the person had lung issues and apparently started puberty late and then had blockers not long after, so I don't know how their lungs have developed, beyond a quote saying the lung capacity will be bigger.

However - there is clearly a difference early on, probably linked to early puberty. The peak flow chart shows a marked difference in sexes from age 15. Up to then I believe it's based on height but the peak flow monitor leaflet notes a difference in sexes.

If someone transitioning has asthma, the dr would still refer to the chart for their original sex for medical purposes.

For comparison, my best peak flow is around 140/130. I struggle below 100 and am quite ill at 90. (Which isn't much difference). But the difference between my peak flows and a males even if they're having issues is still large.

I just thought I'd point out an example of how there is a definite difference that is pertinent to both sex medically and within sport.

I did feel a lot of sympathy for Kate, reading the story in their own words. It must feel absolutely shitty to love sport, be good and want to compete, but to be on medication that impedes your performance. But that experience can't be unique to TIMs!

Where do male athletes who take other medication that impedes their performance compete? At a lower level, I would guess. Disappointing for them, but appropriate.

Because the categories are not Men / Women and less-good Men. Women's sports are not just 'like the men's, but not quite as good'. The people at the top of women's sport should be elite women, not slightly shit men.

I think that's where the general public wilk draw the line. Men aren't going to like it when they see people born males winning prize money and trophies because they've moved into the women's category. Even if they don't have sympathy for the women I think it will leave a bitter taste in the mouths of men who had 'I should have been a sports star dreams' not realised.

So, it was a boring article and didn't read it all. I do realise they had lung problems as a child. But biological males compared to females develop a bigger lung capacity all through childhood and particularly during puberty. So even if a male is/has taken hormone blockers they will always have an unfair advantage over women and girls.
The only way to resolve this is to add 2 categories TM And TW. But women's sport should be left alone. There is so little money in it and support for it as it is.

Can you imagine the outrage if there was a sport or pastime that relied on being as petite, small boned and light as possible and men couldn't win the prizes because their bones were just too big and they were just too naturally heavy?

The rules would be changed faster than you can blink to make it "fair".

(Gymnastics is sort of there, but they are usually fearfully strong. And has a male category anyway. Ditto ballet)

HolycheesE - i read your informative after posting....

I did feel sympathy for Kate until I read "My thing is, I'm not gender neutral, I'm a girl. The whole idea of a third category invalidates my sense of identity."

And.... IT is not everyone right to be an elite athlete. I worked my butt off as a teenage athlete and didn't make it (and know others too). No one felt sorry for me. Why should we feel sorry for this person because they might not quite make it.

"In terms of psychological wellbeing and the distress they have to go through, the barriers they face - changing rooms, discrimination, a lot of them have poor mental health - you could argue that puts them at a disadvantage."

Yes, poor mental health affects strength of males compared to females I am sure if I was competing I would have more chance of winning against a man with mental health issues, than a woman without.

Jones says if a sport can prove that a transgender athlete has an advantage, then it would be more inclusive to have a size or skill category rather than separating transgender competitors.
Or you know, keep it separated by sex.

Until more research is done "I think sport should be open to everyone regardless of their gender identity or hormone levels or what genitals they may or may not have."

I think this person might be a transactivists actually. As if male and female bodies and such are simply about 'genitals'.

Mtb and Downhill are close to my heart, my son rides at national level, we know young women riders who are amazing athletes and have worked hard to get where they are in their sport.
This is a video of a man cycling, they have the muscle mass of a man, his arms are a mans arms, his legs are male.
Crucially, to me, it is a video of a mediocre rider, making a whole load of errors. They are certainly not displaying the skills that I would expect from an elite rider. If my son of similar age were to compete in the elite female class he would win hands down and probably with a far bigger lead than Kate won with.
I just cannot get my head around any of this, it's utter madness.
The part where Kate says she will make the racing cooler because she jumps. Top female downhill riders are extremely gutsy, they have to be, they throw themselves down mountainsides. How dare Kate make them out to be lesser riders.

I would never have been an elite athlete. But I was good enough to compete at county level before my periods became horrendously heavy, cramps meant I sometimes found it painful to move at all and PMT (really PMDD) meant that I spent the ten days before my period suffering a complete lack of co-ordination. So I gave up competitive sport.
Some elite tennis players have been brave and honest enough to say how their menstrual cycle impacts on their performance, but the collective response seems to be "well, tough". Women can be disadvanted in sport by their biology, never mind medications.