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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Why is it called RADICAL feminism??

128 replies

aaarrrggghhhh · 24/03/2018 21:44

ie in the whole TERF thing?

My understanding is the basic position is:

sex = biological fact = reason for all sorts of bad stuff done to women (e.g. sexual assault, inadequate medical care) = need for interventions/policies to address bad stuff because of biology = need for women to be identified as women in a number of circumstances so biological related bad stuff can be addressed

gender = social construct and cultural stereotypes (e.g. relevantly makeup and dress wearing) = reason for all sorts of bad stuff being done to women (e.g. women are easily distracted by pink unicorns so can't possibly run business, men aren't able to clean so women must do all the cleaning) = need for gender stereotypes to be uncoupled from identification of "women" as women. Indeed, often this means the use of sex specific terms is to be avoided to avoid gender stereotypes (e.g. chairperson).

dominant transgender position/self- id = women = gender construct not biological fact = women to be identified as 'cis' women on the basis that they are one subset of a broader category of women based entirely on gender = the complete opposite of basic feminist principles.

Am I missing something? How is this radical??? My understanding is that this is really uncontroversial feminist logic that is accepted in the mainstream??? For the life of me I can't see how this logic is radical.

My own view is that i am entirely happy for men to wander round in dresses and lipstick and more power to that for challenging gender stereotypes. Very happy to support clear rights for people who don't feel they fit within established gender constructs to not be discriminated against in the workplace etc.

VERY unhappy to get changed at the swimming pool with ANY person with a penis in the room whatever they identify as. Very happy to support the provision of other areas for such people to get changed were they feel safe.

How is any of this radical? How did that become the accepted term??

OP posts:
Lolabowla · 24/03/2018 23:58

@stillscreaming many of us on here are mothers. We know how vulnerable children are and how they don't have the capacity to make informed decisions that affect the rest of their lives. I'd rather fight to erode gender stereotypes than have a child of mine believe they were born in the wrong body because the structure of society is messed up. Surely that's preferable to a lifetime of medication and on going mental health problems.

aaarrrggghhhh · 25/03/2018 00:02

Oh and re the Trump point - these are not really new ideas that I've been introduced to. These are long held views I've had that have simply been brought into focus my current issues.

It is indeed odd to find myself in a position where I nod along to a Daily Mail article, but the steps to reach the same conclusion that I have taken are very different from them.

I imagine vegetarians feel the same bewilderment re Hitler....

OP posts:
LassWiADelicateAir · 25/03/2018 00:02

Her work sort of started the sex wars, the split between those who were anti sex work and anti sexeorkers. Liberal feminists developed the idea that not all porn is equally bad, that lesbian stuff made by lesbians wasn't oppressive etc and that if a women chose to make her living in sex work, she was still an acceptable human being

Um - is that is a gross misrepresentation of both Dworkin's and radical feminism's position on prostitution. Heaven knows I'm no fan of either but it is prostitution they opposed/oppose.

aaarrrggghhhh · 25/03/2018 00:06

Hi Snowmaker

Thanks - really? Well then transphobic be I it seems.

But I then find the definition of "transphobic" offensive!

If anything I am manphobic! It is not the trans bits that I don't want in women only spaces - its the man bits!

OP posts:
Stillscreaming · 25/03/2018 00:09

The reality is that I do want (not fully transitioned if that is the term) transgender women excluded from certain all women spaces. There is no way round that.

I do understand that and I understand your discomfort but, with all the love in the world, it's not all about your discomfort.

I came out very early, I was still at a girls' school when I started my first sexual relationship with another girl. Like all teenage girls who are in love for the first time, I wanted to shout it from the rooftops.

Thr rest of my games class refused to get changed in front of me because I made them uncomfortable. I was a bit hurt but I started getting changed in the loo but that wasn't good enough, they were still uncomfortable.

I felt no sexual attraction towards them, I wasn't looking at their bodies, I just wanted to get changed as quickly as possible and play hockey. I wasn't allowed to do that anymore because of their discomfort. I hear about those trans women and I think of myself at 15. I wasn't a sex offender. I wasn't a rapist. I just wanted to get changed. I wasn't allowed.

Lolabowla · 25/03/2018 00:10

To be fair, I don't think trump cares who fights for America trans or not, it's more about paying the medical expenses afterwards, ie trans ops. That's why he doesn't want trans gender people in the military

Stillscreaming · 25/03/2018 00:17

It's funny how the same people who think it's dreadfully difficult to define woman and man, and that no-one, least of all the 3.5 billion female people of the world should get to have dibs on the word they use for themselves, ALSO have no difficulty in defining hate speech in an extremely unhelpful way as "whatever I say is hate speech"

I don't want to cheerlead anyone into surgery. I don't want to have a say on any medical procedure carried out on another person. I want to leave that to the highly qualified clinicians.

In addition to not wanting a say, I don't want any other, unqualified, person to think she can chime in with her unqualified opinion and have it taken seriously.

I'm not saying that anyone who disagrees with me is using hate speech. I simply wouldn't have the time. To hold the opinion that trans people retain their birth sex is factual. To belittle, abuse or harass a trans person is hateful. To call someone by a name they don't want to be called is hateful. To impose a pronoun on someone else is hateful.

Stillscreaming · 25/03/2018 00:25

I understand newbies walking into this debate and being confused, but I lose all respect for those who've heard the evidence, seen the lack of logic, and understand the consequences, and yet still wave their pompoms for what will turn out to be the Jimmy Savile-esque scandal of this generation.

I see that. I see the need, not just to disagree but to bash down any dissenting views. I see that I can't engage in a single thread without being called a man, receiving personal abuse or having the sexual abuse of children referenced.

Lolabowla · 25/03/2018 00:27

@stillscreaming being a lesbian and being transgender are two totally different things. I say this as a straight woman. Lesbians and gays are honest, are based in reality and say "I'm attracted to people with the same biological sex as me" that doesn't impact on anybodies life. Trans people say "I was born with male anatomy, "I" believe I am a woman/man. Therefore the population should agree with my beliefs. It's crap. There are very few trans people who pass as the opposite sex. Why should your average person lie to somebody to feed their delusion? It's ridiculous. I have no problem with trans people. They deserve the same rights as everyone else. Don't expect other people to discard reality to justify somebody else's dillusion. It's unrealistic

Juzza12 · 25/03/2018 00:27

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Haidees · 25/03/2018 00:30

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NotTerfNorCis · 25/03/2018 00:31

I see the need, not just to disagree but to bash down any dissenting views.

Yes TRAs do that a lot. It's the purpose of the word 'terf'.

Stillscreaming · 25/03/2018 00:39

...being a lesbian and being transgender are two totally different things.

They are. Those girls were still totally sincere in their discomfort and their right to have their discomfort acknowledge still overrode my right to get changed. In partial terms, the situations were similar.

I'm not trying to be the thought police, I'm happy with you to think whatever you like. I'm asking for respectful discourse where people use the names and the pronouns they are asked to use.

I can tell you that 'cis' is an appropriate Latin descriptive term and is perfectly correct. However, I know that women are uncomfortable with it and don't want it used to describe themselves. I don't keep squawking it out becasue I'm 'right', that would be rude and disrespectful.

Juzza12 · 25/03/2018 00:43

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Lolabowla · 25/03/2018 00:49

Nah, cis is offensive I do not conform with the oppressive gender roles society has imposed on me. It's crap. Am I a woman yes. Am I cis? Am I fuck

LassWiADelicateAir · 25/03/2018 00:50

I truly, truly, think that the majority of today's society in the UK do not believe that transwomen are "actually" women, despite a desire to not see transgendered people abused or to cause offence

Rod Liddle definitely doesn't. He makes it quite clear twice in his Sunday Times column today. l suspect The Times will not be bombarded by its readers for calls for retractions and pillorying.

Stillscreaming · 25/03/2018 00:57

We know males commit crimes at far higher rates. Theres no evidence that suggest transistioning changes that.

We know that some males and some females commit crimes, including sexual ones. We don't exclude anyone on the basis of the crimes they might commit.

We know that the massive majority of sexual crimes happen to women and children in their homes and are committed by men they know. If a child is sexually abused, in the vast majority of cases that child will be abused by a step father. If a women is raped, in the vast majority of cases, it will be by an intimate partner.

Keeping trans people out of changing room and bathrooms doesn't keep women safe.

There was a link in the trans fear spreading thread (not its real name) to a list of sex crimes carried out in in changing/bathrooms by trans people or men dressed as women or transvestites. Over the course of the 19 years it covered, there had been 87 assaults worldwide. During the same time period, more women have been killed by having vending machines fall on top of them.

This is not about a real and present threat, it's about discomfort.

Stillscreaming · 25/03/2018 00:58

Nah, cis is offensive I do not conform with the oppressive gender roles society has imposed on me. It's crap. Am I a woman yes. Am I cis? Am I fuck

I accept your right to name yourself. I'd like you to extend that right to others.

Juzza12 · 25/03/2018 02:04

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Stillscreaming · 25/03/2018 02:08

@ Juzza12

We've been through this before, referencing your fellow exclusionists on MN has about as much credibility as referencing your mate's homework.

Here's a wiki link, even that's more believable.

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cisgender

Juzza12 · 25/03/2018 02:13

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Stillscreaming · 25/03/2018 02:14

Lesbians are the last women you could call cis, no lesbians accept that label.

We've been through that before too, do you remember how you haven't been elected to speak for all the lesbians?

Now, I've had too much gin so I'm off to bed before I say something I'd enjoy.

Lolabowla · 25/03/2018 02:15

I name myself out of reality. I am female as are the other 51% of the population who share my biological reality. Trans women are men who really really really want to be "seen" as women. I give respect when it's due. Give me any trans women who has periods, given birth, been socialised female, who is expected to put himself above everybody else from day one, responsible for childcare and I'll follow the delusion. You can't. Trans people are human beings and deserve respect and compassion like everyone else. It offends me when men who can't cope with masculinity claim they are women, they don't have a clue what being born with female biology is about. They would love to, they can't, they have no experience of being female, they just don't feel like men

Juzza12 · 25/03/2018 02:22

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rowdywoman1 · 25/03/2018 02:34

Nobody should worry about being called transphobic as the term has zero credibility. It does have traction and power sadly because too many people are frightened of it.
However the definition is so wide ranging and subjective that it literally encompasses anything said that the listener finds offensive. A shame as of course there is discrimination against trans people which should be taken seriously. Sadly their "leaders" are so fond of silencing and misogyny that they forgot to ensure that their demands were legitimate and credible - hence the situation we're in at the moment.

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