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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

A call to arms

71 replies

IAmSproutycus · 24/03/2018 09:41

Hello folks,

I’ve been thinking all sorts of thoughts about the current situation over the last few weeks/days/hours, and although there isn’t going to be as much coherence to my writing as I’d want, I just wanted to post something rather than nothing.

There are going to be hard times ahead. The biggest hurdle that we face is our fear. That fear is not misplaced. Many of us have been disturbed by the news that our fellow women have had social media accounts closed, been suspended from jobs or prominent positions, or been targeted by police as a direct result of their refusal to remain quiet about their concerns. We know that we are referred to as ‘TERFS’, and that we are exhorted to ‘Die Cis Scum, Die’. Worse still, we are told that one of our sisters was assaulted for no reason other than that she attended a talk (at which trans representatives were also present and part of the presentation and discussions of the evening). This news (and the other innumerable small and larger instances of aggression) inevitably creates a climate of tension and fear. We fear sharing our views both privately and publicly for the very real possibility that there will be repercussions. We fear the repercussions for our continued education, employment, and social standing. And, for many of us, we fear the repercussions where we are most vulnerable as women: we fear the repercussions for our children. We fear not being able to put food on our children’s plates if we lose our jobs. We fear the abuse that they will surely receive if we speak out as this debate continues, and we are called upon to speak up. And as we continue to hear examples of the aggression directed towards us for speaking our truth, we may even fear for their physical safety. I am aware of the risks we face in speaking out. I feel so very scared. But I cannot remain ignorant of the risk we face by remaining silent.

I feel a deep sadness at the rift that this issue may cause between women and our trans sisters. I stand with transwomen (and transmen) in their struggle for recognition of their needs and access to services and will continue to do so. I have provided training to various organisations across the UK on trans issues and needs, and again hope to continue to do so. I have used my relative privilege as a platform to amplify the voices of those with less power. I now face the accusation of transphobia by so-called trans-rights activists when I raise the question that many of us raise: that we need to discuss how to best meet everyone’s needs without eroding the long-recognised needs of women to feel safe. I make no claim to have the answers to that question, but I am chilled at the strength of belief that we do not have the right to ask the question by the refusal to consult, no platforming, and #nodebate.

And so we need to collectively think about how to keep raising that debate, and to show our individual support of the issue. I remain in absolute admiration and awe of the incredibly brave women who have identified themselves in public to speak on our behalves. I owe them, as do many of us, an enormous debt of gratitude. Their ability to speak out despite facing the same barriers, spoken and unspoken threats, and risks faced by us all gives me heart. I am aware that many of us want to contribute, but do not know how to do this safely. (It may be that it is not possible. Possibly this is an issue that will require us to be prepared to lose everything to save something).
And so, in comradeship sisters, I ask that we dig deep. I ask that we spend some time, individually or collectively, thinking about what we can do to speak up whilst staying safe. Again, I have no answers, but a very big list of questions. I've been thinking about the amazing feminist activism of the Garneau Sisterhood (Google it). They managed to achieve so much because they had a clear identity/ 'brand' (e.g. Garneau Sisterhood), and all the activism was done without a single person having to speak up - posters and campaigning was done anonymously by the Garneau Sisterhood.

I think it would help if we had a collective term to define who we are (there’s lots of good reasons for this if we’re trying to make this an issue of public awareness). Yes, we’re ‘women’, and hell yes I’m keeping it, but so are lots of other women who are not yet on board with the cause. We need something other than TERF to show that we are women who are particularly supportive of raising this debate. Whilst we have used the term with humour in the attempt to defuse the power of a word placed on us by trans-activists, we are not TERFS. We are most of us not exclusionary. I want to fight alongside my sincere trans sisters, not with them. I want to find a good solution so that we all feel safe, and I say that it’s the men who need to budge up and make room for us all. We all fear male violence and the risks of losing safe spaces. We cannot allow the power of our righteous fury to be diluted by the same tired old divide and rule strategies of the patriarchy. And so, I propose that we cannot call ourselves TERFS (although, man, there are some BRILLIANT usernames people got out of that 😊).

Anyhow, I’m running out of time here, and I’ve already fed the smallest child all the junk food in the house to buy me time to post. I meant to be so much clearer with my thoughts. I meant, if we can find a way to make our voices both loud and safe, that would be great. Thoughts very much welcomed. Signing off, in comradeship.

OP posts:
Badbilly · 25/03/2018 14:12

I think it would help if we had a collective term to define who we are (there’s lots of good reasons for this if we’re trying to make this an issue of public awareness). Yes, we’re ‘women’, and hell yes I’m keeping it, but so are lots of other women who are not yet on board with the cause. We need something other than TERF to show that we are women who are particularly supportive of raising this debate. Whilst we have used the term with humour in the attempt to defuse the power of a word placed on us by trans-activists, we are not TERFS. We are most of us not exclusionary. I want to fight alongside my sincere trans sisters, not with them. I want to find a good solution so that we all feel safe, and I say that it’s the men who need to budge up and make room for us all. We all fear male violence and the risks of losing safe spaces. We cannot allow the power of our righteous fury to be diluted by the same tired old divide and rule strategies of the patriarchy. And so, I propose that we cannot call ourselves TERFS (although, man, there are some BRILLIANT usernames people got out of that 😊).

I think many "outsiders" (i.e. people outside of the debate-the "don't knows" if you see what I mean) see this as a battle between "Feminists" and the Trans movement. As soon as they see any of these words they just switch off, and move on, ignore, or see it as Transphobic, without even thinking about it, or pursuing it further. I think even using words like "the patriarchy" are off putting to many women, as well as men.

I think the battle should be concentrated on the opposition to the Self ID aspect of the Trans movement, or it can be seen as a ad hominem attack.

You don't really need to get people who already agree with you to join your movement, but the great "middle ground". And (and please don't take this the wrong way) you may need to dumb down your argument, or at least generalise it, and concentrate on ONE aspect of it, which I think should be the self ID aspect (my opinion only).

mach924 · 25/03/2018 14:35

'Real women'

I had thought that the term would be readily recognized as referring to people who were really women, as opposed to men pretending to be women; but clearly there are nuances that I had not seen.

MistressDeeCee · 25/03/2018 14:39

A new collective term. That would be good...since TERF and Feminist have become dirty/insulting terms.

When men who are not postmodernist brocialists understand what’s happening, they are NOT going to go for the idea of men in their wives’ and daughters’ loos, nor men getting naked in communal changing rooms with them. If they’re sporty and have daughters, they’re going to be offended by the unsportsmanlike unfairness of boys taking their daughters’ spots on teams or at seeing their daughter’s teams lose out to teams with boys on them. Right now, they’re not paying much attention, except to comment almost everywhere that they’re sick of hearing about this issue. When it starts hitting close to home, they’ll pay a lot more attention

^ This.

IAmSproutycus · 25/03/2018 16:46

Barrackerbarmer - really good point about tapping into the already very well automated unconscious recognition of the meaning of 'women'. Totally makes sense to use something super simple which is clear as mud, directly responds to the 'transwomen are women' 'alternative fact', and doesn't pull in any unwanted political associations. The reason I'm keen to look for/explore any sort of agreement on terms is because it's harder to organise resistance without a common public shared identity/label for the issue. I'm a nonstraightradfem, but that label doesn't reference my views on this issue or let other people know what I think specifically about Self ID.

I'd also be keen to avoid disenfranchising men as much as possible badbilly. Need all the allies we can draw on.

If I had a wishlist, it would be for a techie person to start a website with all the great information from other threads here (please oh please CSAID?), and for an agreed shared term/headline phrase, then I could print off a million stickers and badges and spread them far and wide to get folks to visit the CSAID website and see what the debate is about first-hand. Do I still have two wishes left? 😁

OP posts:
IAmSproutycus · 25/03/2018 16:47

I meant to explicitly say I loved Women are Women barracker

OP posts:
Badbilly · 25/03/2018 17:17

How about "ASID" (Against Self I.D). Obviously pronounced "Acid".

Ironically, it is a gender neutral term, so can encompass women, men and anyone else who is against self ID.

I think it would be wrong to try and make this a "real women" v "pretend women" type argument, as so many groups within both men, women and the trans community are against that aspect of it.

Gacapa · 25/03/2018 17:27

Sorry, I don't think it is our job to discuss how to meet everyone's needs and you also lost me at trans sisters.

It's impossible to go back and I don't think we were ever responsible for that anyway.

It's actually very simple. We fight to keep our female spaces and the word woman and against self ID.

If others want to fight for a third space, happy for them to crack on. I also really like and admire a lot of transsexuals on mumsnet and elsewhere.

I also don't like being referred to as a comrade.

I'm afraid we have been pushed and it is now all or nothing.

DonkeySkin · 25/03/2018 17:43

How about "ASID" (Against Self I.D). Obviously pronounced "Acid".

The problem with this is that 'Self ID' is a TRA concept, and using this framing is implicitly letting them define the agenda. Feminists need to go on the front foot, to not merely oppose what the TRAs are pushing but to forward a vision of our own, and that involves rejecting all the Orwellian language and the confusing framing that TRAs have deliberately set up in order to bamboozle people.

That's why I think 'sex matters' is so strong. It's not merely a defensive response to the madness of self ID, it is redefining the whole debate on our terms by getting back to first principles. TRAs are trying (largely successfully) to get politicians, policy makers and the public to pretend that sexed biology is of no consequence to society, and that anyone who thinks it is is an uneducated bigot who harbours irrational prejudice against trans-identified people. 'Sex matters' manages to sidestep this dishonest framing while pointing up their extremist agenda and reminding everyone of what the central issue is in this debate.

Whereas most people would probably puzzle over whether they are for 'Self ID' or not (because it's such a radically new concept and it's hard to get your head around the implications), only the most dedicated of postmodernists would try to claim that sex doesn't matter. We thus have reframed the debate so that we (the supposedly hateful 'TERFs') are the rational ones and they are the ones defending an illogical and unworkable position.

BrandySchnapps · 25/03/2018 18:37

I'm cool with TERF tbh.

(Seen elsewhere):

Tired of Explaining Reality to Fuckwits

Kyanite · 25/03/2018 20:33

I emailed CASID but I haven't heard back...

DJLippy · 25/03/2018 21:36

@donkeyskin

Really like sex matters. It's got two meanings as well which is always good...

Materialist · 26/03/2018 08:11

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Materialist · 26/03/2018 08:35

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

DJLippy · 26/03/2018 13:26

"They know they’re being manipulated, and no one likes that feeling."

I went to Goldsmiths Uni which is a cradle for this type of thinking, granting it was ten years ago but already you could see the beginning of this movement. It took me so long to realise what was happening because I didn't want to be accused of homophobia and was trying to accommodate trans people. As soon as I twigged what was really happening I got sooooooo angry and radical because I knew that I'd been manipulated by my good nature and 'education.' Hopefully this is how other people will feel when they're peak transed, fighting all the harder for it.

I'm the only person in my family who went to uni and lot's of my friends back home in Manchester didn't but they get it, not much persuasion needed. Many of them are brexiteers though so probably all just a bunch of bigots eh? (I'm being sarcastic there) It's a strange co-allition to be formed though - this could unite people in left and right of political spectrum.

Mouthtrousersafrocknowandthen · 26/03/2018 20:30

We can find the middle ground, don't lose heart. We are civilised people.

Hope that doesn't sound patronising, still smarting from a telling off when I was sharing equal pay stuff.

I've worked so much with aggressive men, I've become one!

Mynewnameforabit · 27/03/2018 18:14

..the trans population.., is significantly larger than the 1% you cite
I only quoted the 'less than 1%' which one of your comrades cited actually, your argument over what proportion of the population are trans is not with me!

Worse, trans demands are the essence of rape culture: they are male insistence on penetrating female boundaries.
I hope no one who has actually been raped reads that - it's really a bit sick to suggest that hypothetically using a female toilet or changing room is like rape. And it makes you sound a little hysterical, tbh Hmm

BarrackerBarmer · 27/03/2018 22:55

'hysterical'

Mouthtrousersafrocknowandthen · 28/03/2018 20:05

Yep, that's women for you, hysterical. Time for a lie down on the bed with a glass of laudanum.

Is it really 2018?

Datun · 29/03/2018 08:07

Worse, trans demands are the essence of rape culture: they are male insistence on penetrating female boundaries.

I hope no one who has actually been raped reads that - it's really a bit sick to suggest that hypothetically using a female toilet or changing room is like rape. And it makes you sound a little hysterical, tbh

Rape culture isn't rape. It's an attitude that allows rape to foster.

Telling women they can't maintain their own boundaries, that their opinions aren't worth listening to and that their consent isn't necessary is rape culture.

LastGirlOnTheLeft · 29/03/2018 08:55

It's sick to refer to concerned women as hysterical.

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