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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

The Man Friday campaign is likely to harm cisgendered women

340 replies

SarahAr · 22/03/2018 18:44

Although I applaud the audacity and bravery of the women who decided to identify as men and use the mens' changing room at the Dulwich Leisure Centre, sadly their campaign is misguided and is likely to lead to harm to cisgendered women.

The only law in England and Wales that gives someone who was born male the right to use female spaces, such as changing rooms, is the Equality Act. On the face of it the act only applies to those who propose to undergo, are undergoing, or have undergone a process to reassigned their gender. To understand how it is interpreted though you need to look at the case law. The leading case is Croft v Royal Mail and although it applied to an earlier statute in a slightly different context, it is still good law. This case held that a transwomen would only acquire the right to use the women's toilet at work when she was significantly advanced in her transition.

So the law today does not allow men (or women) to self-id their way into the opposite gender's changing room. And the government has stated that it is not going to change the Equality Act so the law in this area will not change. And as far as I know, no pervert has succeeded in using the Equality Act to access a changing room in the 7 years that the Equality Act 2010 has been law.

The government has announced however that it is considering simplifying the process of changing legal gender under the Gender Recognition Act. However, and this is the crucial point, if a man changes his legal gender to female it does not give him access to female spaces.

There is a myth that with self-identification a man would be allowed to say that he is a women - say on Friday afternoons. However, nothing could be further from the truth. If the process in Ireland is followed a legal instrument - a statutory declaration - has to be filled out in front of a solicitor or other suitably qualified person. And the wording has to say he has a "settled and solemn intention to live in the preferred gender of female for the rest of [his] life". And lying on a statutory declaration in the UK is a criminal offence - punishable with up to 2 years in prison under the Perjury Act.

If a man were to change to his legal gender to female and sneak his way into the women's changing room it would still not prevent him from committing the offences of Voyeurism and Exposure. Both of these offences are drafted in gender neutral terms.

Not only is the Man Friday campaign unnecessary, it is positively harmful. The constant stream of articles in the media saying that men can identify as women on a Friday and use the women's changing rooms have two effects. Firstly, people who work in leisure centres believe this to be the law and stop challenging creepy guys trying to access the women's changing room. Secondly, it gives perverts the idea that they have the legal right to perform perverted acts. (they don't and these acts remain criminal offences)

And this is not just a theoretical analysis - this actually happened in Seattle, Washington. After a prolonged Republican media campaign stating that a new law allowed perverts to access the women's changing room, a man took them at their word and, claiming rights under the new law, decided to change with the women. And the sad thing is that the staff confused by the media coverage did nothing to stop him. But the kicker is that the new law did not allow a man to self-id his way into the women's changing room. And this is not my legal analysis - this is the legal analysis of the Washington State Human Rights Commission.

So in summary women's spaces are not threatened by either the current law or the government's proposed changes. However, if the Man Friday campaign plants the idea into people's minds that men can self-id their way into women's changing rooms, then expect to see perverts take them up on the idea.

OP posts:
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Mouthtrousersafrocknowandthen · 22/03/2018 23:19

Love this thread, love it, love it. I went out to watch Julius Ceasar at the NT Live cinema series, nowhere near as much drama as I've come home to here. Cis - a stupid word for the stupid to use.

Flowers
Juells · 22/03/2018 23:20

A self identifying transwomen is a women

I don't know about anyone else, but I'm convinced.

AngryAttackKittens · 22/03/2018 23:21

A seahorse is a horse. I mean, it's right there in the name! I predict that one would win at Ascot if nasty bigots didn't block them from competing.

SmufOrTerf · 22/03/2018 23:22

Sensefinder
A person with a penis is a man
Therefore should not be on an AWS
HTH

SwearyG · 22/03/2018 23:22

A women? Can one be professional when plurals are beyond you?

smilethoyourheartisbreaking · 22/03/2018 23:23

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

LangCleg · 22/03/2018 23:25

A sealion is a lion. ROAR!

(I might get in terrible trouble for that one.)

SmufOrTerf · 22/03/2018 23:28

Lang you might
I got deleted for commenting on a photo of one

yes it was angry

Juzza12 · 22/03/2018 23:31

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

AngryAttackKittens · 22/03/2018 23:37

Pretty sure it's more than a few, Juzza.

Sensefinder · 22/03/2018 23:43

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

terryleather · 22/03/2018 23:46

Ps don't fantasize about me, but if you must I wear a white coat

Is that the kind with the extra long sleeves that tie up the back...?

LangCleg · 22/03/2018 23:47

HAHAHAHAHAHA. He couldn't even get his correction right. Let's hope he's got a secretary for that shit.

SwearyG · 22/03/2018 23:48

Exactly my thought terryleather Grin

thebewilderness · 22/03/2018 23:54

Come on ladies, you can't preach equality on one hand while being discrimatory in the other.
We are on the Feminist chat where we talk about women liberation, not the equality scam that strips women of their hard fought rights.

"The law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich as well as the poor to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal bread." Anatole France

AngryAttackKittens · 22/03/2018 23:55

Let's just not talk about the suspicious stains that he was hoping the coat would hide.

Sensefinder · 23/03/2018 00:06

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

thebewilderness · 23/03/2018 00:08

-2 for failing to stick the flounce.

Mouthtrousersafrocknowandthen · 23/03/2018 00:13

Mantastic

CadyHeron · 23/03/2018 00:14

Who would have thought the fluffy website called 'Mumsnet' would actually be a hive of hardened feminists

Grin

1 - First time I've ever been called a hardened feminist. A few months ago I was being accused of being an MRA and a handmaiden on here for saying I like men and they're not always bad. Sticking up for them on threads and have always hidden the feminist boards.
Shows how the tide turns, when it comes to finding out I've been lumped into "cis" woman and reading all the utter bonkerness, and Self ID madness, I'm now a hardened feminist. I'll take that Grin

2 - you really don't know MN if you think it's full of fluff. There's sensible,nice posting men on here too.

Mouthtrousersafrocknowandthen · 23/03/2018 00:16
There no chicks with dicks, only guys with tits.
thebewilderness · 23/03/2018 00:17

Clearly this d00d never wandered into AIBU unprepared.

Sensefinder · 23/03/2018 00:39

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

IfNot · 23/03/2018 00:44

I think there could be some great discussions between men, women and other orientations.

The worst kind of men are the ones who think they are dead intelligent, but in actual fact are thick as pigshit.
As a professional woman I often find them the most disappointing Sad

CadyHeron · 23/03/2018 00:50

I hope that the anti male resentment doesn't pan down to our young boys who are quite defenceless

Can you expand on that? Not entirely sure what you're getting at...