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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Debunking some myths

162 replies

pallas81 · 21/03/2018 12:18

I know I will be crucified for this but I aim to reach out to those who consider themselves open minded on the issue of reform to the Gender Recognition Act.
There is a great deal of talk about the dangers of male predators in female only spaces. It needs to be pointed out that this has nothing to do with the 2004 Gender Recognition Act or its possible reform. As the law currently stands, transgender women are perfectly entitled to use female toilets, changing rooms and facilities such as shelters and rape crisis centres. A Gender Recognition Certificate is NOT required. In fact, in law, it is illegal to demand such a certificate.
Transgender people are protected under the 2010 Equality Act. For those who are vehemently opposed to trans people having certain rights, you should be campaigning against the Equality Act instead of occupying yourselves with self identification.
However, I should point out that in the countries that have already adopted self identification as law there is no evidence that male predators have used it to prey on vulnerable women.
I'm afraid that much of the anger around this issue looks like paranoid fantasy when one knows the facts. Despite the best efforts of squalid sites like Transcrime, the rates of criminal behaviour among self-identified trans people is much much lower than the societal average and there is ZERO respectable evidence that self identified transgender females represent any threat to non-transgender females of any age.
If you wish to comment, please try to be courteous. Thank you.

OP posts:
EmpressOfSpartacus · 15/05/2018 16:15

I'm sorry, just realised that I've only posted the definition as an image which isn't very accessible. Here it is:

"..any person whose gender identity and / or gender expression does not conform to conventional ideas of male or female gender, or the sex they were assigned at birth. This includes all binary and non-binary gender identities and those who have an absence of gender identity."

Moonkissedlegs · 15/05/2018 16:16

@Moonkissedlegs saying that trans-people are persecuted and marginalised does not detract from other groups who are also persecuted and marginalised. Your argument is akin to saying that if antisemitism exists, there's no room for any other kind of racial prejudice. That's simply not true. It's entirely possible that people suffer discrimination based on gender identity and other people can also suffer sex discrimination.

You have totally missed my point. I didn't list those examples as 'reasons that trans people can't also be marginalised in society'. I listed them as examples of why 'gender identity' is a load of old bollocks when it comes to how we decide how to segregate in certain situations, on the basis of sex (ie. Refuges, prisons and changing rooms). We should segregate by sex not gender identity, because women are oppressed by sex not gender identity.

If you can't 'identify' into womanhood because you can't 'identify' out of it. If you could, don't you think there would be millions of women the world over queuing up to do so?

Out of interest, what rights would you like trans people to have that you don't think they currently have?

Moonkissedlegs · 15/05/2018 16:19

So that should have said

You can't 'identify' into womanhood because you can't 'identify' out of it.

Dont know where the 'if' came from!

Bibijayne · 15/05/2018 16:29

@whyaresquishiesnotsquishy

I've responded to your points. You just don't like/ agree with my responses.

I'm posting so that other people, browsing these forums can see that not everyone is a horrible bigot and that people are willing to remind this echo chamber that other views exist. I'm not here to try to persuade you that your deeply entrenched views are wrong - that wouldn't work and would be a total waste of time and effort. If I had any hope that you were open to debate and listening to other views i'd happily dig through journal after journal to back up the points I've made. But there's very little point is there? You're entrenched in your bigotry and no amount of reason or reference is going to change that.

Bibijayne · 15/05/2018 16:31

@Moonkissedlegs women are marginalised because if sex AND gender. Which is why I don't agree that those spaces should be segregated on sex alone.

whyaresquishiesnotsquishy · 15/05/2018 16:40

I've responded to your points. You just don't like/ agree with my responses.

You have not responded with anything other than your own opinion. You have not responded to the actual evidence I posted, not offered any that you have found.

All you are doing is repeating your dogma to us.

If you'd like to join a debate, please can you bring some objective proof to it.

We know what you believe, you've made that clear. But if you want to change our minds, we'll need more than just you repeating what you believe and insulting us.

I asked you the following directly, twice. Are you not able to answer it?

You mentioned "extensive scientific/ medical and psychological research" for example. I'm particularly keen to see this - what do you think it proves?

Moonkissedlegs · 15/05/2018 16:42

@Moonkissedlegs women are marginalised because if sex AND gender.

Could you expand on this?

Moonkissedlegs · 15/05/2018 16:44

Gender is a social construct that has come about as a way to keep men and women in specific places on the basis of their sex.

Bibijayne · 15/05/2018 16:46

@whyaresquishiesnotsquishy

As I've said - you're not open to hearing proof :) there's plenty available. I see no need to waste my time on a lost cause :)

Teacuphiccup · 15/05/2018 16:46

No women are oppressed because of sex BY gender.

Sex is the justification, gender is the opression.

AssassinatedBeauty · 15/05/2018 16:48

@Bibijayne why not post a summary of your position for the benefit of lurkers? It must be fairly easy for you to summarise your response to these points, given how firmly you know that you are right.

whyaresquishiesnotsquishy · 15/05/2018 16:51

As I've said - you're not open to hearing proof

I've asked you for proof several times. You're just talking mince now.

Debunking some myths
Bibijayne · 15/05/2018 16:55

@AssassinatedBeauty

Why not let them read the thread? :)

AssassinatedBeauty · 15/05/2018 16:58

Well, you haven't actually responded to the points made. I know you think you have, but you really haven't. Which is a shame, as you are clearly able to respond, as you state, but you don't want to. I don't see how that will convince anyone who is unsure of their position that your interpretation is correct.

Bibijayne · 15/05/2018 16:59

@whyaresquishiesnotsquishy

No, you've asked me to hunt down peer-reviewed material (much of which is behind a paywall) which will take a considerable amount of time to gather. You will then not read it, and post to non-peer reviewed content to justify why you have no intention of changing your stance.

It's a classic derailing technique used online and I have no intention of playing along.

My purpose and point is to highlight for all to see that many, many people do not share your views on this matter.

whyaresquishiesnotsquishy · 15/05/2018 17:00

Hope you like my lion, by the way. He identifies as a sealion.

But please don't suggest he might have the same urges other lions, who don't identify as sealions, do.

There are NO studies that show sealion-identifying-lions are dangerous to sealions, so therefore they're not a danger.

(What's that you're saying? "There are no studies at all, absence of proof is not proof of absence, and anyway it's obvious lions have lion-like urges?" Nonsense I say!).

Moonkissedlegs · 15/05/2018 17:02

Take the woman who is discriminated against at work for example. Now some of that discrimination will be straight up sex based, for example not giving a job to a woman of child bearing age because she might have a baby.

Some of it might be 'gender' based. Ie. Assuming that a woman isn't cut out for a specific role because women are too 'emotional' or not 'authoratitive' enough or 'too authoratitive for a woman' or whatever. But that gender based discrimination is still based upon the fact that that person has a vagina: is female.

Ultimately women are oppressed on the basis of the sex.

Bowlofbabelfish · 15/05/2018 17:03

As I've said - you're not open to hearing proof smile there's plenty available. I see no need to waste my time on a lost cause

Bring it on. Here are some facts. You’re welcome to rebut them but you will need evidence. Yelling bigot/echo chamber and all the nice buzzwords isn’t debate.

Humans cannot change sex
Transwomen remain Male
Transwomen have Male patterns of sex offending and violent offending
Self ID will reduce protections for women and girls
Self ID will dilute child safeguarding procedures for all children
Most children diagnosed as trans desist

If there’s plenty of scientific research, and oodles of proof, bring it. I’m a scientist - you show me a peer reviewed body of work and I’m open.

Show me how humans can change sex, and I’ll put a call in to the Nobel committee and tell them their search is over for the year.

whyaresquishiesnotsquishy · 15/05/2018 17:05

"No, you've asked me to hunt down peer-reviewed material (much of which is behind a paywall) which will take a considerable amount of time to gather. You will then not read it, and post to non-peer reviewed content to justify why you have no intention of changing your stance."

It's you who said there are "extensive scientific/ medical and psychological research"

I'm simply asking you what they are.

I also asked "what do you think it proves?" which doesn't require you tracking down anything - I'm asking your opinion.

I wonder what you think the extensive studies prove? Because it's not safety of hormones, or of puberty blockers, or success of transition by measures such as mental health.

So what do these extensive studies prove?

Also, this is a bullshit stance, which promotes the continued spread of dogma. I'be lost count of the times I've seen an intersectional feminist complain about emotional labour os suggest someone else go google, or educate themselves, without recommending any sources.

It's a bullshit get-out. You're accusing the other person of being ill-educated without providing any evidence that you are not ill-educated yourself.

Bowlofbabelfish · 15/05/2018 17:19

I’m amused you think I’m ill educated. :) I’m a career scientist with four degrees and more letters after my name than in it.

Like I say, bring on this extensive peer reviewed research. There’s a few of us GC scientists on here, we would love to see it. We scientists are an open minded bunch - you show me a body of evidence that’s peer reviewed, repeated and well constructed and I’ll change my mind. There’s not a scientist alive working who hasn’t changed their minds in the light of new evidence, it’s part of the process.

Or keep on about hateybigotechochambernastyladies. Up to you.

whyaresquishiesnotsquishy · 15/05/2018 17:19

I accuse you of sealioning and you counter with "It's a classic derailing technique"

Funny that. Hmm

I don't think asking for evidence, or providing it, has ever been recognised as a derailing tactic. It's a fundamental part of debate.

But you've said you don't want to provide it - so it's the same old tosh again, isn't it - "transwomen are women because I say so. Believe me or I'll call you names if you don't".

Until you can come up with something better than that, your "debate" is doomed. People are increasingly seeing through it, because all they have to do to be vilified is ask questions.

And once people see through the bullshit, there's no going back.

whyaresquishiesnotsquishy · 15/05/2018 17:27

Bowlofbabelfish I was replying to Bibijayne not you!

Sorry if that wasn't clear!

I certainly don't think you're ill-educated.

I'm keen to know what @Bibijayne thinks all the evidence proves. They doesn't need to look it up even - I'm asking for an opinion!

DodoPatrol · 15/05/2018 17:33

I'm not here to try to persuade you that your deeply entrenched views are wrong
If I had any hope that you were open to debate and listening to other views...

But I am open to debate. I have changed my views, after hearing more of what transactivists are aiming for, because the logic of their position utterly escapes me.

Meanwhile, the argument that there are two sexes, and that sometimes we segregate for good reasons, seems quite a strong one.

Bowlofbabelfish · 15/05/2018 17:34

Oh i know! My reply was to Bibi too :) I didn’t think you’d said that

No worries ;)

whyaresquishiesnotsquishy · 15/05/2018 17:35

Phew! :)

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