What do you say when people say that Canada, Denmark, Ireland, Argentina and Malta all have much easier ways of getting a GRC and there appears to be no issue?

[yetanothertranswoman]

It's an argument I see a lot. Look at these countries - in Canada, you need a doctor's letter and that's it.

Ireland - has self ID without a doctor.

People who say look at these countries, there's been no issue - so what's wrong with self ID in the UK.

How can that argument be countered?

thatescalated / trinity66 that tweet was by one person who is a bit off the wall and who, while a prolific tweeter, speaks for no-one but herself. The Irish feminists who have been vilified as "terfs" are in my experience, staunch feminists, many (but not all) older women with years of activism behind them. One of them I know who was given the FUCK OFF TERF treatment was heavily involved in the 1983 campaign, a far tougher time to be pro-choice.

It really is appalling how they're behaving. That stupid letter did nothing but cause hurt to our English sisters who have stood by us and supported us over the years in many different ways. They are desperately trying to prevent discussion because they know how uncomfortable your average Irish woman would be knowing that she is being "saved from the English terfs" on the behest of a late-40s American TIM who has been living in Ireland about four years. Yes, this is all in the public domain, on Twitter, if anyone cares to look. What could Anne Ruzylo or Linda Bellos or Julia Long possibly know about feminism in comparison?

Thanks Irishfeminist I will do a bit more digging on Twitter etc.

That letter really annoyed me, the assumption that they were speaking for all Irish feminists and the complete lack of interest in acknowledging any potential issues or other perspectives. Not to mention the wholesale embrace of 'cis'.

I thought it was really arrogant amongst other things - 'Together cis and trans, we are Irish feminists'

*irish feminism that last bit should read. In other words, if you don't agree you aren't a feminist.

According to CNN, in 2014 Denmark "followed Argentina's lead and allowed legal gender recognition for transgender people over the age of 18, solely based on their self-determination -- without any medical intervention."

source: edition.cnn.com/2017/02/23/health/transgender-laws-around-the-world/index.html

I have put part of this quote in bold font to highlight how the self-ID gender-identity law in Denmark seems to apply to adults only, not children (in contrast to the UK proposals, which do seem to include the transing of children).

Catholic countries have easy GRCs because they're homophobic, not because they're progressive.

Thanks for this piece of bigotry. Would you like to add more?

One other big difference between Ireland and the UK in terms of trans services is that the "third space" option is being pursued in many places as the sensible choice, and it’s not meeting much (any?) opposition.

For instance:

Universities are creating new single cubicle "gender neutral" toilets and sports changing rooms while still (at least for now) maintaining single-sex facilities. The gender neutral toilets are being made by relabelling male and female single cubicle toilets, not just female ones.

School's' guidance leans more heavily towards allowing trans pupils to use preferred-gender toilets and changing facilities, but offers gender neutral facilities (e.g., single unisex toilet) as an acceptable alternative. It also notes that for contact sports, trans students should be considered on a case by case basis due to issues of player safety (i.e., it's not an automatic right to play in the preferred gender). These guidelines were drawn up in cooperation with both LGB and trans organisations in Ireland, so there aren’t big groups lobbying for something different.

I know people familiar with the issues are sick of talking about toilets, but it’s the area that makes most of the general public aware of trans policies in real life. And when the “third space” concept for trans provision is normalised regarding toilets and changing rooms, I think it makes it less likely that women’s single-sex spaces will be handed over unquestioningly lost.

mardhea the loss of female facilities is still a great loss to female students though and they weren't consulted. The end result for them is the same: blokes in the loo. I genuinely don't think anyone really wants it and as with many of these things it's driven by a tiny group of mouthy pushy extremists.

irishfeminist I know the workings of one Irish university in detail and it at least still has single-sex toilets and changing in the sports centre. The gender neutral facilities are on top as a third space specifically for transgender people. It came about after years of pushing from the students' union, so most students seem pretty bought-in.

Ideally, the university would have shelled out for new toilets, but at least male and female single cubicles were appropriated alike so it's not the usual pattern of making women (only) budge up.

Yeah, there's a possible third way involved but what they're doing is redesignating existing facilities like here:
www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/ucd-introducing-gender-neutral-toilets-and-transgender-changing-facilities-829263.html
The redesignated loos might be originally male and female but it's women who lose out far more than men. Men are far more sexually aggressive and prone to voyeurism, filming, assaulting women.

I have also wondered about the effort or lack of effort by religious organizations to influence the transitioning debate in countries where they do have significant influence. There was a terrible clash in Argentina and much bitterness still.

Am I the only one old enough to remember when women used to stop at their friends houses to use the toilet because public toilets outside of department stores and gasoline stations were uncommon?

thebewilderness I'm old enough to remember when an argument seriously and frequently trotted out against having more women in Parliament (indeed any women in parliament that weren't cleaning, serving the tea, or taking shorthand) was "there aren't enough ladies' loos for them".

thebewilderness wrote - "There was a terrible clash in Argentina and much bitterness still."

I'm interested to learn more about this. Can you share any details, please?

Wasn't sure if this warranted its own thread or not.

Argentina has a lower retirement age for women than men like the UK used to. A man changed his gender to retire 5 years early, wonder how much longer self id will survive in Argentina? I mean who on earth could have forseen this being abused?

www.nation.co.ke/news/world/Argentine-legally-changes-gender-to-retire-early/1068-4352176-6iecp2z/index.html

"Sergio, who was a divorced 59-year-old man, became Sergia under a law that allows a legal change of gender without undergoing sex reassignment surgery, the InformaSalta website reported.

In Argentina, women can retire at age 60, but men have to wait until they are 65.

"This is a clear case of abuse of misuse of retirement rights and of the law on gender identity," said Matias Assennato, the head of the Salta province civil registry."

In the U.K., we are seeing that changes are taking place in advance of any legal changes. Did this happen in Canada? The law changed then in April 2015 but I am interested in when people in Canada started to behave differently, e.g. Like swim England or some universities have here.

If you don't have a diagnosis and you don't live in your chosen gender, why do you need a legal sex-change?
This is the question that needs to be put to anyone who supports self-I'd.

There are some privacy laws which might offer women protection in Ireland. But the government has not clarified to me yet what happens if transrights conflict with privacy rights (and I would hazard a guess that they have not figured this out).

Transactivism hasn't been as big here as elsewhere, but I think the shit is about to hit the fan.

A senator has written a bill (supported by many other senators) that would ban gender identity "conversion therapy" (i.e. this will force clinicians/professionals to go down the gender affirmation route)

I started a thread on it here www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3201424-Terrible-Bill-against-gender-identity-conversion-therapy-proposed-in-Ireland

It threatens people will imprisonment! They have tagged it on to the anti-gay conversion therapy cause.

There is a new support-line after being set up for families of trans children. If it goes the way of Mermaids, or anything like it (along with some other groups here pushing trans and non-binary ideology), I predict a massive increase in trans-identified children and even adults, here, and then we will start to see problems. Most people here have absolutely no idea about the self-identification laws.

Anyone in Ireland please write to your politicians about this issue, or any other group that you think might be relevant. They need to hear other views, other than that of transactivists.