Can I remain friends with someone so supportive of TRA ideology?

[gendercriticalNC]

I am a regular poster but have NC for this specific post.

Oh dear, a good friend has posted this article on Facebook

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/opinion/article-this-international-womens-day-feminists-should-finally-accept/?utmsource=facebook.com&utmmmedium=Referrer%3A+Social+Network+%2F+Media&utmcampaign=Shared+Web+Article+Links

Her partner is transgender...I'm assuming he is in the process of transitioning to live as a woman but have not dared have the conversation. They are both very nice people & I absolutely have no problem with how they choose to live their lives but this demand for trans women to access women's spaces is just not on.

I wonder if we can continue to be friends?? Only if I remain quiet I think.

If anyone can counter the stats in this article I would be keen to hear from you!

Yes, it's 100% possible to be friends with people with opposing viewpoints and probably a good thing not living in an echo chamber too. The main requirement is that neither of you are evangelical about your opinions and can either agree to disagree or find common ground but if you don't think they'll be like that then you may struggle.

Sorry I've reread and that came across smug - I think you can remain friends with them if you're both keeping to your sides if that makes sense? If your friend's partner is currently transitioning then you may need to temporarily cool the friendship but I wouldn't lose contact entirely in case she ends up needing a GC friend.

Thanks for the reply @FeministBadger unfortunately I think she will indeed be evangelical about her view. That's why I have not dared raise it with her so far because I was afraid of what I would hear. Maybe the truth is that I am entrenched in what I think too but I just cannot ignore the facts in order to appease her & her partner. I think this is probably too big an issue for us to be able to agree to disagree.

She posted that article on IWD & I actually feel quite enraged by it. I also feel sorry for her that she is so far in she can't see what I can see. I understand her viewpoint is coming from a good place - she really loves her partner & probably totally believes that a) he is really a woman born in the wrong body and b) all trans people must be as lovely as he is.

Not long ago I was in the "live and let live" category. I still am - but only if it doesn't hurt other people.

In an ideal world, yes you can remain friends. I'm very good friends with someone who is both a creationist and is homophobic, and who knows I'm bent - weirdly enough, we've got so much else in common (and she's sort of "officially", religiously homophobic rather than personally so, IYSWIM) that it doesn't get in the way of our long friendship.

But but but - current mainstream trans activism has a lot of cult-like attributes, where deviation from the approved messages brings down harsh punishments, and one of the approved messages is that Thou Must Not Associate With Disobedient Women. So I think you can be friends, and indeed I agree with the poster upthread that friendship across political divides is generally a good thing, but I think she may be the one to withdraw.

I'm struggling with this too

friend believes completely in "feelz" - yet also writes off anything else that doesn't have a scientific basis.

I mention that because it weirds me out even more.

We will stay friends but it's a topic that can't ever be discussed.

That article! 'Creating safe spaces for all women means beginning with those who need it most.' (I.e women with penises).

Op my friend is similar. I haven't disvussed the issue with her. I know she will never change her mind and neither will I so I focus on other things. She is a good person who is doing her best to think of people she considers oppressed. I do get cross with some of the rubbish she posts about transwomen but I simply don't commemt on them on social media. The topic has never come up in conversation.

I'd spend a bit of time on the trans widows thread and be prepared to be there for your friend. It is entirely possible that she had her doubts and issues with this and is feeling pressured to support her husband and be fine with the transition.

Give her space to open up and be there for her if you can. If not cool things a bit but be prepared to step back in if you need too.

Thanks everyone for your replies. I feel so upset (but not surprised) about this so it's really helping getting some other thoughts on it and good to know I'm not the only one facing this dilemma.

I agree that with PP that if I out myself as a Disobedient Woman, then it will probably be her that cuts me off as she will see it as an attack on her partner. So far all my gender critical stuff has been anonymous both here and on twitter. I have not been using FB.

I think I will have to keep quiet and wait and see what happens with them. I can't believe that this will be an easy road for her to travel, however much she loves him. I love my DH but if he was this way inclined it would be game over for us as a couple. She must be a better person than me! I will check out the trans widow threads. Presumably there are some couples out there that can survive this, maybe they will be one of them.

If TRA ideology comes up in conversation I am sure I will not be able to fake my agreement though...and I kind of don't want to either as I wouldn't be being true to myself.

I'd say that my frustration and disappointment that my ex partner wouldn't even consider or entertain my views on these issues played a part in our break up.

I was livid with his dismissal and typical right on brocialist shtick. He was so left wing that he called an 80 year old woman a cunt for not supporting Corbyn.

That and the trans porn I found...

This is such a huge deal for me. I would hugely struggle to be friends with a TRA type. Actually I don't think I could do it.

Faced with losing her husband, I imagine your friend intuitively knew it was either embrace the whole shebang or have a failed relationship.

It's not fair she was placed in that position at all and it's must be very hard for her. She needs your friendship - because despite all of the protestations and support she is showing, I bet she is inwardly struggling.
I would express that you don't agree with everything she says, but that you fully support her and her husband as they go through this big change. If you are rejected after that then they simply can't be reasoned with.

The article is propaganda. Feminists have been refuting the trans identified males claim that Simone D supports their argument for decades. The survey results in the article are just that. Online surveys. Of no value whatsoever except in propaganda pieces.

My advice to you is to read the trans widows threads as well as "Why Does He DO That" and treat your friend the way you would treat any friend in an abusive relationship.

Hmm interesting ...I genuinely hadn't considered this to be an abusive relationship. She seems bizarrely "into" it. They have been together a very long time now - many years - and also have young children. They are not married. She has known about his tendencies (& has been very supportive) all along but it's only recently that things have started to get serious. I thought he just liked a bit of dressing up but he is changing his name & regularly posting photos on social media in full make up, pouting (seeking validation of attractiveness) etc. They are both vocal (& sometimes aggressively so) about trans issues on social media - i never comment & its one of the reasons I stay away from FB. Obviously no one knows what's really going on inside someone else's relationship but it really seems as though she is totally supportive (why have children with someone if you're not?). I guess only time will tell.

I think the problem is that your friend is very likely to be both evangelical and inclined to turn on you if you openly disagree, since she'll get shit from her other friends if she doesn't. Looking at her friends group, do most seem to be TRAs? If so I'd be a bit wary.

I have one formerly close friend who's gone a bit TRA and sadly it did mean the end of the friendship, since all of her other friends are full on sending screechy angry messages to gendercrit or even vaguely biology aware people on social media telling them to die types and I just don't want to be around people like that. They're the kind of people who turn up at IMD type events to chant about trans women being women and TERFs being Nazis.

If otoh your friend still has a wide variety of friends and you've known her to be capable of an agree to disagree stance in the past then you may be able to just work around the subject.

Oh also, with a TIM partner it's likely that she'll feel torn between her loyalty to him and her loyalty to you, which is a shitty situation to be in. I'd be inclined to try to keep channels open even if you don't talk much for a while just in case she realizes that she wants out later and needs a lifeline in terms of a friend who's not part of the cult.

IWD I mean, though in the current climate it may as well be renamed IMD.

Yes, I have several pro-self id friends and relatives. We have mostly agreed to disagree.

I must admit though, I am going to be smug when they do peak trans!

I think there's a difference between the sort of reflexively right-on, "well I don't see the problem" sort of person (who will most likely hit peak trans eventually, especially if female) and the full on death threat sending, punch a TERF sign at demos holding, no platform supporting TRA type. Easy to stay friends with the former, not so much with the latter.

I couldn’t be friends with someone who shared that. For me one of the main foundations of friendship is shared values. I can’t be bothered arguing with people anymore so I stick with my own tribe i.e. people who don’t just go along with whatever is in fashion at the time. Those who can see how much all of this is damaging what women have fought so hard for. That article just makes me angry.

@Mrskeats yes, I tend to feel the same way...it's so fundamental. I know the only way to continue would be for me to stay quiet about how I feel & I don't think it's a healthy basis for a friendship.

I have read a lot of the trans widow escape committee thread & it's actually left me feeling nauseous about the trauma inflicted on families. The more I read the more I despise the transcult phenomenon that seems to be sucking victims in at an ever increasing rate.

I hate conflict so I doubt I would ever have the courage to even raise this issue with my friend. We may have to quietly part ways perhaps until the day she wakes up from this nightmare.

I think I'm going to take a break from social media now. This issue has occupied most of my waking thoughts & worries for some time now. I need a break!

Thank you again to everyone that posted

It is always very difficult being friends with someone when you know that there is something you massively disagree about. I've been in this situation before. I just had to make the decision to put my thoughts about the person's belief into a little mental "box" inside my head and just keep it completely separate from all the other feelings I had about them.

It can be worth doing if you like the person enough in other ways.

And their feelings about the topic in question could change dramatically down the line. Many of us here probably started off being super-transactivist-supportive and all that, and then changed our minds later.

A lot of partners of late-transitioning transwomen end up separating from their partners eventually; if this does happen, it may be very helpful for her if you are there for her (especially since many of her other female friends may continue to pressure her to support her partner).

@Kokeshi123 I can't believe how much my view has changed in just the space of a couple of months (thank you MN for helping the scales fall from my eyes). I started off in a supportive position but now I feel horrified. Women and children being thrown under the bus for the sake of the delusions & feelings of a small number of men. I refuse to go along with the madness. If that means I might lose a friend then so be it.

OP, I read the article you linked to, and got as far as this sentence

“Woman” is a social category and a personal, political identification – it’s not shared by everyone with female genitalia, and not off-limits to those whose bodies mark them as male, or otherwise.

This, in a nutshell, is what is wrong with trans ideology. No, that is not a definition of "woman". A woman is an adult human female.

@OldCrone the whole article left me utterly incensed. To post it on IWD as well. Double insult & insanity. I don't think I can get past this.

Oh god, it gets worse. I've just seen her partner seems to be a Mermaid supporter (he has "liked" them on Facebook). He also seems to be a Paris Lees fan. I'm wondering if the person I thought was lovely is actually lovely at all...perhaps just misguided or under the spell of the transcult? I'm wondering if he has totally manipulated/gas lit my friend now. My head is all over the place, I don't know what to think.

I didn't know about Mermaids or the story of Susie Green until I read the very disturbing post about @therealposieparker being interviewed by police about tweets she made about Mermaids. As far as I can tell she simply told the truth? This is all very scary...what kind of dystopian nightmare do we live in now?