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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Tucker Carlson on The War on Women. Someone I love has posted this shite and agrees with it. Help me coherently deal with it, please.

24 replies

NoStraightEdges · 08/03/2018 11:33

I don't know if you've seen it, but I'll copy and paste it below.

The person that has posted it is dear to me, but I'm so shocked. If he tries to engage with me about it I suspect we'll fall out because it's just such misogynistic nonsense.

How would you respond if you were me?

You hear a lot in America about the "war on women," but it's men in America who are failing. We have some shocking statistics:

The signs are everywhere. If you’re a middle aged man, you probably know a peer who has killed himself in recent years. At least one. If you’re a parent, you may have noticed that your daughter’s friends seem a little more on the ball than your son’s. They get better grades. They smoke less weed. They go to more prestigious colleges. If you’re an employer, you may have noticed that your female employees show up on time, whereas the young men often don’t. And of course if you live in this country, you’ve just seen a horrifying series of mass shootings, far more than we’ve ever had. Women didn’t do that. In every case, the shooter was a man.

Something ominous is happening to men in America. Everyone who pays attention knows that. What’s odd is how rarely you hear it publicly acknowledged. Our leaders pledge to create more opportunities for women and girls, whom they imply are failing. Men don’t need help. They’re the patriarchy. They’re fine. More than fine.

But are they fine? Here are the numbers:

Start with the most basic, life and death. The average American man will die five years before the average American woman. One of the reasons for this is addiction. Men are more than twice as likely as women to become alcoholics. They’re also twice as likely to die of a drug OD. In New Hampshire, one of the states hit hardest by the opioid crisis, 73 percent of overdose deaths were men.

But the saddest reason for shortened life spans is suicide. Seventy-seven percent of all suicides are committed by men. The overall rate is increasing at a dramatic pace. Between 1997 and 2014, there was a 43 percent rise in suicide deaths among middle aged American men. The rates are highest among American Indian and white men, who kill themselves at about ten times the rate of Hispanic and black women.

You often hear of America’s incarceration crisis. That’s almost exclusively a male problem too. Over 90 percent of inmates are male.

These problems are complex, and they start young. Relative to girls, boys are failing in school. More girls than boys graduate high school. Considerably more go to and graduate from college. Boys account for the overwhelming majority of school discipline cases. One study found that fully one in five high school boys had been diagnosed with hyperactivity disorder, compared with just one in 11 girls. Many were medicated for it. The long term health effects of those medications aren’t fully understood, but they appear to include depression in later life.

Women decisively outnumber men in graduate school. They earn the majority of doctoral degrees. They are now the majority of new enrollees in both law and medical schools.

For men, the consequences of failing in school are profound. Between 1979-2010, working age men with only high school degrees saw their real hourly wages drop about 20 percent. Over the same period, high school educated women saw their wages rise. The decline of the industrial economy disproportionately hurt men.

There are now seven million working age American men who are no longer in the labor force. They’ve dropped out. Nearly half of them take pain medication on any given day. That’s the highest rate in the world.

Far fewer young men get married than did just a few decades ago, and fewer stay married. About one in five American children live with only their mothers. That’s double the rate in 1970. Millions more boys are growing up without fathers. Young adult men are now more likely to live with a parent than with a spouse or partner. That is not the case for young women. Single women buy their own homes at more than twice the rate of single men. More women than men now have drivers licenses.

Whenever gender differences come up in public debate, the so-called wage gap dominates the conversation. A woman makes 77 cents for every dollar a man earns. That’s the statistic you’ll hear. It’s repeated everywhere. But that number compares all American men to all American women across all professions. No legitimate social scientist would consider that a valid measure. The number is both meaningless and intentionally misleading. It’s a talking point.

Once you compare men and women with similar experience working the same hours in similar jobs for the same period of time — and that’s the only way you can measure it — the gap all but disappears. In fact it may invert. One study using census data found that single women in their 20s living in metropolitan areas now earn eight percent more on average than their male counterparts. By the way, the majority of managers are now women. Women on average are scoring higher on IQ tests than men are.

Men are even falling behind physically. A recent study found that almost half of young men failed the Army's entry-level physical fitness test during basic training. Fully seventy percent of American men are overweight or obese, as compared to 59 percent of American women.

Perhaps most terrifyingly, men seem to be becoming less male. Sperm counts across the west have plummeted, down almost 60 percent since the early 1970s. Scientists don’t know why. Testosterone levels in men have also fallen precipitously. One study found that the average levels of male testosterone dropped by one percent every year after 1987. This is unrelated to age. The average 40-year-old-man in 2017 would have testosterone levels 30 percent lower than the average 40-year-old man in 1987.

There is no upside to this. Lower testosterone levels in men are associated with depression, lethargy, weight gain and decreased cognitive ability. Nothing like this has ever happened. You’d think we’d want to know what exactly is going on and how to fix it. But the media ignore the story. It’s considered a fringe topic.

Nor is it a priority in the scientific research establishment. We checked and couldn’t find a single NIH-funded study on why testosterone levels are falling. We did find a study on, quote, “Pubic Hair Grooming Prevalence and Motivation Among Women in the United States.”

Those are the numbers. They paint a very clear picture: American men are failing, in body, mind and spirit. This is a crisis. Yet our leaders pretend it’s not happening. They tell us the opposite is true: Women are victims, men are oppressors. To question that assumption is to risk punishment. Even as women far outpace men in higher education, virtually every college campus supports a women’s studies department, whose core goal is to attack male power. Our politicians and business leaders internalize and amplify that message. Men are privileged. Women are oppressed. Hire and promote and reward accordingly.

That would be fine if it were true. But it’s not true. At best, it’s an outdated view of an America that no longer exists. At worst, it’s a pernicious lie.

Either way, ignoring the decline of men doesn’t help anyone. Men and women need each other. One cannot exist without the other. That’s elemental biology, but it’s also the reality each of us has lived, with our parents and siblings and friends. When men fail, all of us suffer. How did this happen? How can we fix it? We hope this series answers those questions. #Tucker Fox News

I'm sorry it's so long.

OP posts:
TallulahWaitingInTheRain · 08/03/2018 11:39

My view on this is that patriarchy fails both men and women. Men are taught that to be a man is to control others (especially women), to be angry and dominant, to be sexually predatory, to refuse to admit vulnerability, to refuse to take responsibility for their emotions, their behaviour and their lives.

This isn't working for them. It's definitely not working for us. But they are the enforcers of patriarchy so they have a much better chance of changing it than we do.

NoStraightEdges · 08/03/2018 12:01

Thanks for your reply. That's a great response because it's true and won't seem to him like some radical feminist bs that he clearly doesn't believe in and can therefore dismiss.

I'm so disappointed that his only response to today is this.

OP posts:
Kneedeepinunicorns · 08/03/2018 12:09

My question would be ok, some valid points: so where are the men's action groups addressing depression and mental health, providing volunteer helplines, CBT groups, fund raising and sharing information? Where are the men's action groups supporting gyms and community programmes to engage more men in getting more active and addressing obesity?

Women do these things for women. This reads much like: so why aren't the women addressing these things for us?

(And note, having worked for local government in departments hugely disproportionately women because they were social/caring/community support work - women in those positions try endlessly and repeatedly to do these things. The take up is extremely poor and the reasons when you dig down into them: men aren't interested and can't be bothered.) Programmes run by men for men may work a whole lot better.

TerfyMcTerface · 08/03/2018 12:10

Sadly, I think a lot of men have suppressed their misogyny, but it has been there all along. One of the things that many of us will find as this new war on women progresses, and as we fight back, is that our loved ones may care about us as individuals, but that many do not care about our rights as women.

Inseoir · 08/03/2018 12:19

The majority of what he said is absolutely true.

However, he has entirely missed the point of what feminism is about.

As Tallulah says, patriarchy is bad for both women and men.

The difference is, men actively created the situation we are in now, by controlling women, denying them rights and preventing them from reaching their potential. The fallout from that is what feminism is trying to deal with - much of the difficulty women experience is due to men actively standing in their way, for no good reason.

The situation that men are in is not created by women - and women actually do an enormous amount already to change it. Feminist would dearly love men to commit less crime and suffer less mental illness, it's one of the many things we work for and long for. But women can't make that happen for men - men have to do the hard work themselves. They seem to expect women do it for them, or they're implying that when women gain, men lose, which is total nonsense. IT IS NOT A COMPETITION - when will men GET this!!

OvaHere · 08/03/2018 12:23

I agree that the thinly veiled message there is that it's all somehow the fault of women (and therefore we should cease any attempts to prioritise ourselves to sort out men problems).

I don't agree with Jordan Peterson on a number of feminist issues but there are a few subjects he is good on and one of them is young men and responsibility.

He appeals to a wide male audience so perhaps would offer a slightly different perspective from Tucker Carlson and one your friend might be more amenable to than a feminist perspective (you've got to start somewhere!).

UpstartCrow · 08/03/2018 12:23

You've had some good responses but bottom line is, you now need to accept that someone you trust posted this on International Women's Day. he is a male rights activist.

Don't respond. He has made a provocative post and the only possible reason is his private contempt for women.

womanformallyknownaswoman · 08/03/2018 12:33

I wouldn't bother responding and would re-evaluate my relationship with them. This post if provocative - it's posted on IWD; sets a skewed agenda that seems to blame women for men's problems and worse then seems to think that women should sacrifice something for these poor men/s - it's MRA talk. It's a honeypot so they can abuse imo.

Distance, don't respond and review friendship - no person who truly cared for me would post stuff like that, especially on IWD - it's a fuck you to all women generally (and maybe aimed at individuals - dunno)- whatever they are no friend of women - quite the contrary

NoStraightEdges · 08/03/2018 12:34

Upstart that's exactly it.

I wouldn't respond on FB but I'm going to see him today and I wonder if he'll talk about it-he knows that I will disagree with him.

It's really damaged my opinion of him TBH.

Thanks for all of your thoughts and opinions. It's helped me order my thoughts. Hopefully I won't have to discuss it with him, but I do wonder what his wife thinks about it, and whether she will talk to me about this.

OP posts:
hopethisworks · 08/03/2018 12:48

TerfyMcTerface you've just given me a huge lightbulb moment -

One of the things that many of us will find as this new war on women progresses, and as we fight back, is that our loved ones may care about us as individuals, but that many do not care about our rights as women.

I'm feeling quite sad that this is as it's been niggling me for a while now that it's probably true of many of the (I thought good) men in my life. It's as if while it doesn't directly affect me or DD, it's something I'm exaggerating, isn't happening or I'm just getting "a bit worked up" 😔

Great thread OP

hopethisworks · 08/03/2018 12:49

Sorry bold fail on second paragraph!

PerkingFaintly · 08/03/2018 13:08

Having seen Jordan Peterson's behaviour on Twitter after his Cathy Newman interview (including retweeting a shamelessly anti-Semitic account), I really wouldn't be recommending him to educate a misogynist.

See also this thread by someone groomed by the alt-right, who says they use Peterson videos as an important gateway to draw people in.
mobile.twitter.com/MrHappyDieHappy/status/967027082537721856
How do you get an invite to alt-right Discord servers? They deliberately target lonely, disenfranchised young men. They have strategies. 'Best Jordan Peterson video to red pill a normie?' was a three day discussion.

If you feel some of what Peterson says is meaningful, why not extract the points you feel are worthwhile and present those, rather than the Peterson Package?

vioso · 08/03/2018 13:19

Astonishing !
So men are falling behind physically, because of what ? Because it would be their wives' job to encourage them to take exercise and eat well ? The wifes, they don't have anymore as more women achieve some kind of economic independence and are not keen to mother an adult ? Why is it not celebrated that more women are now holding driving licences ? And why do so many men live with their parents ? Maybe because they can't be bothered to run a house, including shopping and cleaning ?
Interesting would be to ask how many hours of unpaid domestic work is done by men and women, and how many hours of childcare or other care ?
And believe in the pay gap or not, how many women are in top management levels ?
Typical backlash for International Women's Day ...

UpstartCrow · 08/03/2018 13:31

The more I think about this the angrier get. Its a power play. If he kicks off I'd be tempted to say 'but men in X have it soooo much worse off than Western white men'. But I cant think where 'X' would be.

Childrenofthestones · 08/03/2018 14:25

To the best of my knowledge and taking them at face value, as far as I know all the facts in the original quote are true and all the stats or are correct.
Read again through the original post and everywhere it says boy change it to girl and everywhere it says man change it to woman.
If the genders in those stats were reversed would you not say that it possibly indicated that women were failing?

NoStraightEdges · 08/03/2018 15:53

Oh, I don't doubt it's true, but I wonder why men aren't doing something about it. Women have had centuries of the reverse being true and now that women are helping themselves (women's studies departments, access to education, driving licenses, the vote, and so on) and are gaining strength in terms of equality, it seems to me that men are worried. And instead of looking at the positive moves that women have made to advance themselves and modelling themselves on these strong women they're trying to claw back power by blaming women.

Whoever upthread said it's not a competition is right. Women are right to want to advance their rights but no one says it should be at the cost of men's wellbeing. These women are often wives and mothers to sons.

But it's also true that prisons are full of men because men commit crimes. Do we really think they commit crimes because of feminism? Are the vast numbers of men that are addicted, addicted because of women? Do men die younger because women vote? No, I don't think so. I think it's because it's time to start seeing everything differently. To stop pitching men against women and to start working towards a better world to live in, no matter if you're a man or a woman. But whingeing in a Facebook post about how terrible it is to be a man in the patriarchy is not going to make things better for men or for people really is it? It's only going to entrench those men that believe women are hateful and responsible for their crappy life expectancy. And give some men free reign to go around wearing their misogyny like a medal.

OP posts:
smithsinarazz · 08/03/2018 16:24

i wouldn't be angry with him. There's some misplaced thinking there (you have to be spectacularly missing the point to say that society ought to feel sorrier for men because they're committing all the mass shootings) but there's also a lot of pain and when people are showing their pain it's not constructive to tell them they're not allowed to feel it.

It's all about toxic masculinity, innit? And I get the impression it's worse in the US than over here. Men being told that good men work hard, earn lots of money, get to the top of the pile, pull the fantastic women. Obviously hardly any of them - hardly any of us - can get up to the top of the pyramid, and in a society-less society that's not made up for by the camaraderie of the people at the same level as yourself, so what can us poor Mid-Pyramidders do?

Women, I think, are less likely to fall for this line; we are perhaps more likely to accept camaraderie and mutual support rather than seeing it as a threat to our self-sufficiency; and we are obviously more likely to take time out to have kids and discover that the sky doesn't fall in if your priorities change.

Men - some men - are stuck. But - as others have said - feminism should help rather than hinder them. Throw off the patriarchy's understanding of what makes you a worthwhile human being and you may find yourself an awful lot happier. I haven't got the answer for depressed men, because I'm a depressed woman. However..

What'd be at the top of my list of suggestions? Do something fun, engaging, and fulfilling that values what both men and women can bring, but doesn't value one sex above another. Do something in which the individual ego is subsumed within the wider good. Do something that allows you to express yourself within a safe space.

In short, your friend should join a choir.

grasspigeons · 08/03/2018 16:29

I probably wouldn't engage to be honest.

But, if I did. it would be along the lines of how interesting it was and how important those issues were, and aren't we lucky international men's day exists which has many of those issues as key aims. I'd then say how its a shame he raised them on international womens instead as it looks like whataboutery or purposeful antagonism and the message gets lost - a little bit like turning up to your best friends birthday party and insisting everyone sings to you 7 months early.

IntelligentYetIndecisive · 08/03/2018 16:50

International Mens Day is November 19th.

merrymouse · 08/03/2018 16:55

I'd say that the post raises some very important issues and International Men's day is on November 19th. The charity Movember encourages activities to raise awareness of Men's health issues throughout November. They are sponsored by Gillette who had a big advertising campaign last year that promoted the charity.

Today, however, is International Women's Day.

Patodp · 08/03/2018 18:11

You could remind him that international men's day is November 19th so that would be a great time to start raising awareness of men's issues. You wouldn't dream of reminding people, on IMD, the multitude of problems women face. It would seem inappropriate and strange.

Circulating this on IWD was a bit odd. Can you ask him why he chose to do this?

Patodp · 08/03/2018 18:20

Oh I didn't see merrymouse !

thebewilderness · 08/03/2018 20:35

The government this wealthy white man is complaining about is full of wealthy white men just like Tucker.
It is true that men do kill more men, including themselves, than they do women but I do not think that makes them the winners of the Oppression Olympics considering who the perps are.

pallisers · 08/03/2018 20:44

The ad in the link below is the kind of shit that men throw at men every day - no wonder masculinity is toxic. The short version of this car ad (on ALL the time) is even worse

No something ominous isn't happening to american men - god isn't smiting them (although god knows he'd have good reason). They have created a world that is no better for them than for the people they hoped to oppress with it.

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