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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Can I ask gay people what they think about the current trans laws/proposed laws

39 replies

thanksjaneshusbandatcaresouth · 04/03/2018 19:17

Fwiw I am a straight woman. Have been on here since 2008 but only in the last month or so on this board. Would probably be described as a liberal feminist.

Anyway, I’m just interested. Feel free to answer or not!

In case it’s relevant, my starting point would be that this would be a bad thing for gay men and women.

OP posts:
newtlover · 04/03/2018 19:19

I'd be interested to know as well but I somehow doubt we have many gay men on mumsnet. The hazards for lesbians are well documented.

xxmarksthespot · 04/03/2018 19:35

Both current and proposed legislation is homophobic as well as misogynistic. Main reasons: 1) the denial of sex and the right to sex-based attractions 2) the abuse of gender non conforming kids, who very often turn out to be gay and 3) that "T" does not belong anywhere near LGB.

thanksjaneshusbandatcaresouth · 04/03/2018 19:41

“ I somehow doubt we have many gay men on mumsnet. “

I had sort of assumed quite a few gay men would like mumsnet :)

“The hazards for lesbians are well documented”
Not disagreeing but am a newbie to all this. I appreciate this may be annoying for folks who have been round and round the issues loads of times.

OP posts:
iwantmycommunityback · 04/03/2018 19:44

I'm a lesbian and I am strongly opposed to the proposed changes to the Gender Recognition Act. However, many organisations are acting like it is already in place and that is especially true of LGBT organisations (I've posted previously about the effect of transactivism on lesbians: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3146166-Transactivism-and-the-lesbian-community ) so I feel like I am already living with it.

At least if we can stop the legislation, we still have a legal basis for defending women's rights. I feel like the LGBT organisations are just lost to us now but hopefully we can re-build from the ground up with new groups if we can get to the point where we can talk and meet openly without fear.

thanksjaneshusbandatcaresouth · 04/03/2018 20:11

Thank you.
Also thanks for being patient with a newbie.
I will read the thread you linked to.

OP posts:
SomeDyke · 04/03/2018 20:27

Homophobic and misogynistic.

Maybe dykes will have to go back to what we used to do before gay bars -- where women would get together in various houses and you had to phone the local lesbian and gay switchboard to get an in. Because anything official is going to be over-run, and only a private party, in effect, can tell the menz to take a hike. So forget about uni LGB&anythingelse soc, or feminist soc, it will have to be grass roots again.

Kneedeepinunicorns · 04/03/2018 20:40

Very much against self ID, and about the ethos and ideology that makes biological women second class citizens. As for the cotton ceiling and the erasure of lesbians and the right of lesbians to have a sexual orientation that excludes male bodies....

Thats the stuff I'm fully prepared to chain myself to railings over. In particular for young transmen, many of whom would have 20 years ago been allowed to be GNC women and lesbians and who desperately need support to be free of gender stereotypes, confident in their orientation, bodily autonomy and in consent, and free to make choices without male supremacist politics dominating and gaslighting them.

Sarahjconnor · 04/03/2018 20:44

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

xxmarksthespot · 04/03/2018 20:51

"I've posted previously about the effect of transactivism on lesbians: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3146166-Transactivism-and-the-lesbian-community"

A must read post

Bartleby83 · 04/03/2018 20:53

I am a gay man (I lurk on these forums because I find the trans threads) and I think the changes are terrifying.

When I was a teenager in the late 90s I used to sometimes think it would be easier had I been born a girl as there was so much homophobia in school and internalised homophobia within me. It concerns me that if I'd had these thoughts today I would've been sent speak to somebody and become even more confused and potentially done something I'd live to regret instead of accepting myself for who I am. I really don't think children should be able to make such a life changing decision so easily when it may well be a phase or masking deeper issues as it was with me. I find it all very worrying.

In Iran gay men are pushed to change to change their gender as it's considered more socially acceptable: www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-29832690 Gay men are being erased. I would hope we're not heading in the same direction...

I've expressed my concerns to straight liberal colleagues... I also said that the idea of being gender fluid is scientifically dubious and that I didn't like gender neutral toilets and was mocked as being transphobic.

Lots of my gay friends share my concerns however and we agree with the poster above that the LGBT groups are lost. Honestly, they have been hijacked by extreme left identity politics types... always bleating on about who is more privileged or the bigger victim in the gay community. If you're not trans or an ethnic minority they're not really interested and the movement seems to have shifted away from being a push towards acceptance towards a push to grouping off as something different. Those of us who believe the only thing different between gay and straight people is who we happen to find attractive would be shunned by today's younger activists. Maybe us bog standard white gay and lesbians are too similar to the cis het normative society.

thanksjaneshusbandatcaresouth · 04/03/2018 21:11

iwantmycommunityback

I have now read the other thread.

I am so very sorry that lesbians are going through this.

I am shocked by what you described, truly.

OP posts:
thanksjaneshusbandatcaresouth · 04/03/2018 21:52

Thank you for all the replies.
Am no George Soros but happy to send a tenner in the right direction if you want to recommend any organisation.

OP posts:
chambeni · 04/03/2018 23:17

I am a gay man and I find it very frustrating how TRA's have appropriated the gay rights movement as they want some very different things.

We are very lucky to live in a part of the world that pretty much has equal rights for LGBT people. I don't think about it much, but I certainly don't feel very discriminated against as I go about my everyday life. Trans people have also been granted a similar level of equality and that should be celebrated.

I am concerned about self-identification but mostly it is how trans issues are presented to children that bothers me most. I was pretty gender non-conforming as a child. I didn't like football or team sports and preferred art and drama. I'd also rather have friends that were girls. I never asked to dress like a girl, be called a female name or stated that I was one, but there was no narrative available that presented this as an option. Sure, I had struggles as I came out as a teenager but I got through them and live very happily as a gay man. I know many tomboys of the 70s and 80s here mention how glad they weren't born in the last ten years and pushed towards the trans narrative and I feel quite the same!

I could NEVER have decided before puberty if I was gay or not, and no child should have to. They should be supported however they express themselves but I think adults should be encouraging children to embrace the personality and body they were born with before any plans for a "gender change" are considered. If a boy wishes to wear a dress then that is fine, children should understand that boys can wear dresses if they like. That's all they need to know. Over explaining is getting dangerously close to over-sexualising younger children and (paradoxically) enforcing the gender norms that are supposedly being broken down.

And that's before the worry of pumping them full of drugs that will irreversibly change their bodies for life.

I perhaps come at the self-id issue from a slightly different perspective than most of the posters here. Personally, I don't really care who I go to the bathroom with, or change in front of. I don't feel particularly threatened by transmen. However, I empathize with women who would feel uncomfortable and totally champion the need for women-only spaces that are unequivocally safe however you, as women, want them to be.

I also know some trans friends and I see the struggles they go through. I think the GRA should be changed to be a little easier for (as they are mostly referred to here as) genuine transsexuals. Instead of two years living as the desired gender, perhaps one is enough? I think getting rid of all gatekeeping is ludicrous as I think it denies some transpeople the support they need to help work out if this is the right path for them. I think it also makes a mockery of the real struggles and issues those who do transition go through. In some ways making it too easy makes it more difficult to prove that way they experienced was real.

I wish the trans agenda was focused on the positivity of being a transwoman. What makes you different doesn't have to make you better or worse than someone born a woman. There will be different needs sometimes and similar needs at others. A time to come together and times when it's best apart.

FWIW I think one side of the argument is being far more reasonable and understanding than the other in this "discussion"

Boxesandbuttons · 04/03/2018 23:20

Thanks for that post chambeni. Very interesting.

SuperLoudPoppingAction · 04/03/2018 23:30

Hi, gay men of Mumsnet!

I'm a lesbian and I have had comments about lesbians in my workplace that were derogatory, relating to the trans issue.

'They're all terfs' ...'what's a terf?'... 'just an old lesbian who is behind the times and transphobic'
and 'wow nobody would call themselves a lesbian anymore - it's so problematic and exclusionary'

I'm comfy in my workplace and don't feel too affected but it still stings.

SuperLoudPoppingAction · 04/03/2018 23:33

I think that the people most affected are young gay and lesbian people as the support they access is very pro-trans-activism and they often get pressured to transition, especially young lesbians. They also get pressure to have sex with people with penises.

I feel like it's becoming a way of abusing lesbians - possibly gay men as well although I haven't seen that as much.
Seems tied into 'queer' becoming a label adopted by trendy folk in heterosexual relationships who are polyamorous/into kinky sex/have asymmetrical haircuts etc

SuperLoudPoppingAction · 04/03/2018 23:36

www.lconline.org/manage-your-subscription/donate-renew-subscription/ This is an organisation that is a genuinely wonderful resource for lesbians worldwide including those in prison, or those who are very isolated.
Donations allow them to send the magazine to people who can't afford it.

hipsterfun · 04/03/2018 23:53

Maybe dykes will have to go back to what we used to do before gay bars -- where women would get together in various houses and you had to phone the local lesbian and gay switchboard to get an in.

I’m straight but if the need has become pressing by the time we have more space, I’d offer my home for this sort of thing. We’ve got young children so it would have to be something dull like a book group.

hipsterfun · 04/03/2018 23:56

nobody would call themselves a lesbian anymore - it's so problematic and exclusionary

Shock

This is making me feel old.

What do lesbians call themselves these days? Is lesbian a word we don’t use anymore?!

SuperLoudPoppingAction · 05/03/2018 00:08

I'm mid-thirties and call myself a lesbian. Most my age will say 'queer' or 'pansexual' or 'gay' though.

I think young female humans who have same-sex attraction can either say they're pansexual or risk getting mocked or excluded by their peers. But some still say lesbian.

It's the only way to assert that clear boundary and express affection towards women.

CircleSquareCircleSquare · 05/03/2018 00:11

I am bisexual and although married (to a man) I have been told that if I was single and looking to date a woman that I “should be accepting and grateful of all genitalia” the implication was that basically I should have sex with a dick no matter who it belonged to.

I feel very threatened by it.

HerFemaleness · 05/03/2018 00:15

Let me guess, the only people permitted to call themselves lesbians are TIMs?

LonginesPrime · 05/03/2018 00:15

I "should be accepting and grateful of all genitalia”

You don't have to have sex with anyone you don't want to. That still stands regardless of your sexual orientation or who's trying to get in your pants.

CircleSquareCircleSquare · 05/03/2018 00:54

No I don’t have to have sex with anyone I want don’t want to, or course.
However the people I spoke to implied that if I want a relationship with a woman, I would be out of line not to want a relationship with a trans woman because I’d be excluding “lady dick”.
I’m bi, not a lesbian and I can only imagine how difficult things are going to become for them.

LonginesPrime · 05/03/2018 01:02

See, I'm a single lesbian and I'm not worried by TRAs saying I have to have sex with bepenised people. Perhaps I should be, but I'm not as know it's my decision.

Attraction is a complicated thing so the notion that I would go around saying 'I don't want to date people in x,y,z categories' seems really odd. I don't feel the need to announce who I'm intending not to date as it's no-ones business but mine.

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