Dress to Impress article in today's Observer

[LaContessaDiPlump]

Anyone else seen this? Apologies, no link as it doesn't seem to exist online - yet here I am looking at it. That's odd in of itself.

Anyway, it's an article on kids wearing drag and focuses on three children, who to my eye appear male: Desmond (age 10), Thomas (11) and Zach (15). Desmond describes himself as gay (note: not trans!), Thomas doesn't mention sexuality/orientation at all and Zach says outright that 'the best thing about a boy wearing make-up is that it promotes a conversation'.

I am torn; on the one hand, I find the idea of kids adopting drag a little off-putting (esp as Thomas says he wants his future look to be 'spiky heels, a corset and ripped lace ungergarments'). On the other hand, these are three very obviously gender-conforming boys and the word transgender has not been mentioned once. I am very pleased with that bit

Any thoughts? To me it feels like the Guardian/Observer might be opening up slightly to the concept that you can like glitter and still be a boy. Happy days!

@thebewilderness "It comes from porn, I suspect." This is a wild assumption. Have you opened a magazine or turned on a tv lately? Women dressed in something similar to the outfit described are EVERYWHERE. Bands like fifth harmony or little mix who are literally targeted at children, even just regular fashion models... I don't deny that kids have terrifyingly easy access to porn these days, but you don't need to have seen porn to get this kind of outfit idea.

Women are massively sexualised in the media, as we know, so it's hardly surprising those ideas seep through to children of both sexes. This is one of the major things we need to fight, clearly. But as far as this particular child is concerned, I don't really think he's doing anything that would be considered noteworthy if it came from a girl of the same age.

It's only his transgressing against gender norms that is shocking, no matter how much you want to frame him as some sort of hypersexual precocious porn obsesser. His transgressing against gender norms is exactly what we should be celebrating. It takes courage to be different at 11!

"Seeing makeup on boys and men in theatrical productions for all these years has not served to normalize makeup on boys and men, so seeing them in the magazines and newspapers isn't likely to either."

Well then how do you propose to normalise it? Do you have a better idea than encouraging men and boys to wear it, and giving them a platform to be seen?

Isn't that Desmond Napoles aka Desmond Is Amazing? He wants to start a drag school for children. Quite disturbing and looking at him I'm a little worried about his weight.
Another one is Lactatia (yes really!) m.youtube.com/watch?v=7k-h0JE8x20

I think it's very sad and quite frightening.

11 years old and talking about women's ripped underwear and corsets?

Nah. That's seriously disturbing.

I know it's hard to get tone across online and I don't want to argue with anyone but I'm really struggling to understand everyone's issue with this! We surely all agree that femininity is a costume and a performance, yes? So why can't men and boys put it on too? I'm not trying to be a GF I'm just trying to understand as I really seem to be in the minority here

TBF a lot of little boys ARE occasionally coming out with saying weird things (as are little girls) It’s what children do.

They make poo poo and booby and panties comments. They want to marry the ice cream van man and work in a chocolate factory. They want to dress as Spider-Man or Elsa all the time.

What’s crazy is putting this in print in a mainstream magazine as if it actually “means something”. It’s demeaning and exploitative and designed to humiliate and manipulate the children involved.

WTAF? If you don't think little girls wearing make up and pouting at the camera is okay because it's sexualising children, then it's not okay for little boys to do it either.

They are children FFS. The adults in these kids' lives who think they're woke for encouraging this need a slap

@SlothSlothSloth - would you allow your primary aged daughter to put on loads of make up and heels and be photographed for a magazine? I find that utterly repellant

The proliferation of porn is what influenced the mainstreaming of these fashions so pretending there is no feedback loop is absurd.

www.out.com/popnography/2018/3/03/rupaul-would-probably-not-let-transitioning-queen-drag-race

Hi Sloth

This is serendipity. I just came across this on Ru Paul who says something along the lines of

Drag is punk rock subverting toxic masculinity.

And also explicitly excluding transwomen post op.

I have been mulling it over all day. Could you help me unpackaged some questions?

1. Is drag skin to radical feminism in subverting the patriarchy?

1. Why does a man need to resort to toxic femininity to combat toxic masculinity?

2a. So actually is it just reinforcing the patriarchy?

1. If Ru Paul can exclude transwomen because the competition is unfair then he’s (she?) is a potential ally re transwomen in sport.

Ps my little boy loves a sparkly princess dress and I love the idea that this is punk rock

@CapnHaddock I think we're looking at two different things? He looks like a kid playing dress up to me. Not sexy or pouting. Sexy/pouting would be the little girls at child beauty pageants, which yes I do think is wildly inappropriate and actually disgusting, but that is led by adults whereas as far as i can see this is a child just having fun.

I don't have a daughter so can't say what I would or wouldn't let her do. I do have a stepson/DPs son of a similar age to the 11yo and he's very gender conforming so can't imagine it would ever come up, but if the shoot was similar to this - so no skin on show, no sexy poses, and makeup that quite clearly he had done himself, i.e. a bit of a mess - i don't think I'd have a problem with it. Provided it was his idea. I would be pleased he was brave enough to stand out and show there's more than one way to be a boy, I think. It's all very hypothetical though.

I absolutely see your point regarding sexualisation of children, I guess I just don't think this is it.

They are 10 and 11.

You think they put this make up on themselves? They didn't. A make up artist did it. And then they were posed for a photo shoot. I don't know if you've ever been at a shoot but it's about as close to playing dress up as a Greggs pasty is to dinner at the Ivy. They've both food but the similarity ends there

but for the Guardian (a bastion of Transwomen are women NO DEBATE), it's quite bizarre to see any sort of acknowledgement that you can be male, non-gender-conforming and somehow not be trans

LaContessa while I understand that you are pleased to see the Guardian expressing a non gender confirming narrative that doesn’t include a trans agenda I think we still need to remember that these are very young children.

The needs of these children should come before a political argument.

The 15 year old I’m less concerned about.

But I have a ten year old son and a ten year old daughter. I would be completely appalled if either of them were talking about ripped lace and corsets.

That’s not right. That’s not appropriate for ten year olds.

My own D.C. aren’t allowed make up but some of their friends play with it. I don’t have any problem with dressing up for play.

That’s not the same thing as being painted and trussed up like an adult and displayed in a national publication.

From what you have posted this article seems to indicate serious lack of judgement by a whole range of adults.

Oh the whole premise makes me deeply uneasy Pennywhistle, have no doubt! I don't feel it's appropriate for kids at all.

I disagree with the poster suggesting drag by gay men is subversive and positive - for them.
Where does that leave the women they are caricaturing?
And I'm struggling to think of another example where one marginalised group APES and caricatures the oppression of a completely different group and is applauded for it.

Can anyone think of another example of one group stereotyping a completely different group, and society deeming it fine and subversive, and turning it into an entire subculture?

Toxic femininity isn't theirs to mock, any more than straight women ought to mock gay men with offensive displays of limp-wristed mincing either. Look at us, we're women being all flouncy gays, but don't worry, we're mocking the stereotype, not you, why aren't you clapping?
Nope.
Drag is just one marginalised group demonstrating that at least they're one peg up from the female creatures they feel entitled to mock.

I have been trying to put my finger on why I find this uncomfortable viewing.

I think it’s that the article appears to be celebrating the nonconformity and agency of these children...but the article and the images are positioned and framed by adults. The images purposely reference similar images of models/celebrities, they are very stylised by adults.

And that makes it appear - at best - pretentious.

Thomas says he wants his future look to be 'spiky heels, a corset and ripped lace ungergarments'

And he's 11?

Wha?!

Hi Barracker

I’m with you

If gay men want to subvert toxic masculinity it just seems crazy to jump over the aisle into toxic femininity.

How did they think it would subvert the patriarchy. Aren’t they just running scared?

If anything the true subversion should be women doing drag.

I do think there’s some mileage though in exploring Ru Paul’s stance that transwomen can’t compete in his drag competitions.

Consider my pearls well and truly clutched.

The only one doing drag is the kid with the giant white headdress. The wee boy in the studded boots is going to fall and hurt himself. I've been known to wear shoes like that, but not at 11. Platforms + heels = youthful lack of coordination = accident waiting to happen.

I wouldn’t be comfortable with my daughters dressing like this as the images are over sexualised. Its as though they want people to react then suggest it’s our narrow mindedness which is the issue because they are boys. I care not about whether it’s boys or girls; the tone of the article and photographs are inappropriate.

If an 11 year old girl said she wanted to wear spike heels and ripped lace underwear would that not be fairly disturbing?

I've sent a few pictures of boys in make-up lately, and they all seem to be preteens or young teenagers. Why aren't there any "brave" articles and pictures of grown men in make-up, yet still claiming their masculinity?

And I would be unhappy with any child aged 10/11 talking about ripped lace undergarments and being trussed up for a magazine shoot like this. More parents seeking virtue cookies, I think.

seen!!!

That's a bad typo athing