Meet the Other Phone. Child-safe in minutes.

Meet the Other Phone.
Child-safe in minutes.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

help me out - trans suicide rates?

37 replies

loveyouradvice · 02/03/2018 16:39

Hi....

I keep hearing that the mermaids/Lily quoted trans suicide rate of 42% is inaccurate and breaches Samaritans guidelines ... self selecting small group etc.... But then I come across the american stats? Which seem very similar? Any idea what we think of them?

An estimated 41 per cent of people who identify as transgender attempt to take their own life [according to figures from the American Foundation for Suicide Prevention] and more than half of transgender youths in the U.S. have attempted suicide at least once before their 20th birthday.

OP posts:
DodoPatrol · 02/03/2018 17:21

I found this 2011 review: any good? Some of the authors are from the AFSP, though the rates of attempts don't seem to tally.

I've only skimmed it, but there is a section devoted to rates amongst T rather than LGB people.

Couple of quotes:
'An international review of studies that followed over 2,000 persons who had undergone gender reassignment surgery identified 16 possible suicide deaths ... If confirmed, these figures would translate to an alarmingly high rate of 800 suicides for every 100,000 post-surgery transsexuals.' [Note: looking at post-surgery, and concentrating on actual suicide, not attempts]

'Suicide attempt rates ranging from 19 to 25% have been reported among transgender individuals seeking surgical gender reassignment. More recent data from nonrandom surveys of self-identified transgender people found that up to one third of respondents report making one or more lifetime suicide attempts.'

'One study using a nonclinical sample of over 40,000 largely U.S. volunteers who completed an internet survey found ... that transgender respondents had a higher rate of reported suicide attempts than any group except homosexual females.'

I can't see anything more recent that looks at this broadly.

loveyouradvice · 02/03/2018 17:26

interesting that lesbians may have a higher rate.... that is something the T community keep very quiet...

OP posts:
LangCleg · 02/03/2018 17:31

Well, this is interesting.

I went to find you the GIDS evidence base quote about suicide in young people and it has changed since November when I last posted it here.

It used to say:

Similarly, suicide is extremely rare, with one case in the service in the last decade, of a young person in an inpatient ward who was referred with severe psychiatric difficulties.

And now it says:

Similarly, suicide is extremely rare.

So either there has been one or more suicides since November (I hope not) or GIDS is responding to pressure like everyone else.

This page also notes that self-harming is present in 39% of their caseload. This would not indicate that suicidal ideation, let alone attempt or completion, is not anywhere near 40%.

gids.nhs.uk/evidence-base

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 02/03/2018 17:36

www.transgendertrend.com/the-suicide-myth/

www.transgendertrend.com/a-scientist-reviews-transgender-suicide-stats/

www.transgendertrend.com/stonewall-school-report-what-does-suicide-rate-mean/

These are some really good, well explained debunkings of the UK figures. I don't know the source of the statistics you quote, but the above links should give you an idea of what to look for.

Patodp · 02/03/2018 18:00

What worries me more about the accuracy or inaccuracy of the stats, is how the stats are used.

When it is used "41% of trans people attempt suicide" it is always followed by So....
"Give us everything we want, full validation, access to anything we want, or we are all going to die"
Even more mildly "So listen to what we want and give it to us"

What it looks like under a different analysis is that Transgender ideology is a magnet for troubled teens or people with other underlying mental health issues.

It attracts the same demographic as teens who would have suffered from body dismorphia. Believing your fat when you aren't. Turning to anorexia or bulimia or use of steroids to look muscly.

Psychiatrists frequently identify underlying causes in body dismorphia. A lack of self esteem. A need to be in control of what people think about you, a need to assert control on your world when you feel entirely powerless, a need for validation, to hear people talking about you the right way. In extremes it leads to total change of physical appearance. Transgenderism is not much different to other disphorias that lead to anorexia/bulimia.
One in five anorexia deaths are from suicide.
There is a high rate of suicide in those on the autism spectrum. A study in 2016 concluded that suicide was the leading cause of premature death in people with ASD. There is a correlation between ASD and Transgenderism.

Transgenderism offers many solutions to the troubled person.

An alter ego that will be praised and celebrated.
Control over people around you. You get to dictate use of pronouns, new name.
You receive a lot of special attention.
You feel celebrated and powerful and have a platform to express yourself and your world views.
You get a free pass to bully anyone who says anything factual.

There are certainly many factors that contribute to a high rate of suicide in trans people, if there is a higher rate amoungst them than other groups at all. But responding to it with total affirmation is doing far more harm than good.

(Including adult cross dressers in the transgender group makes any analysis rather more complicated because they are very contented).

BetsyM00 · 02/03/2018 18:06

LangCleg

It is interesting isn't it? I've been keeping an eye on the gids page as it changed shortly after I first posted the link on MN.

gids.nhs.uk/evidence-base

07Dec2017: 1 suicide in ten years
<a class="break-all" href="https://web.archive.org/web/20171207032817/gids.nhs.uk/evidence-base" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">web.archive.org/web/20171207032817/gids.nhs.uk/evidence-base

17Dec2017: 4 suicides in ten years
<a class="break-all" href="https://web.archive.org/web/20171217175654/gids.nhs.uk/evidence-base" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">web.archive.org/web/20171217175654/gids.nhs.uk/evidence-base

08Feb2018: suicide is extremely rare
<a class="break-all" href="https://web.archive.org/web/20180208182305/gids.nhs.uk/evidence-base" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">web.archive.org/web/20180208182305/gids.nhs.uk/evidence-base

I'm beginning to think all suicide stats are just completely made up.
Wonder what they'll change it to next?

Patodp · 02/03/2018 18:07

I saw the 41% stat referenced in the book
"When Harry Became Sally" R. T. Anderson.

It is widely used across America.

reallybadidea · 02/03/2018 18:07

I'd be interested to know whether there's any evidence that hormones/surgery/any other therapies have been shown to prevent suicide. The fact that mermaids et al never say this makes me suspect that evidence doesn't exist.

Patodp · 02/03/2018 18:07

Fucked up if that's another lie.

caroldecker · 02/03/2018 18:09

I agree with Patodp
It is almost certainly that many of those who are suicidal grab hold of trans as a change that can solve their issues. It doesn't work for them, because it is not the root cause of their problems.

SusanBunch · 02/03/2018 18:10

To be honest, the statistic does not hugely surprise me. People who identify as trans usually have a host of other mental health issues and being trans itself is a distressing feeling that you are born in the wrong body. Other people with dysphorias such as body dysmorphic disorder probably also report high rates of attempted suicide.

However, the trans lobby is using the statistic to say 'suicide rates are so high because they are not accepted/are being bullied'. I don't think that is correct. We used to live in a very racist society but I don't think people of minority groups had exceptionally high rates of suicide because of the discrimination they faced. Women are oppressed more than men, yet we don't have a higher rate of suicide. So yes, trans people may have a greater propensity towards suicide, but that should tell us that they need medical intervention and support. They are suicidal because they have disordered feelings about themselves, not because people are relentlessly bullying them.

LangCleg · 02/03/2018 18:11

Datun - hmmm. Yes. Anyway, we can say it's a maximum of four young people in ten years - with roughly 10,000 referred in that period. So we can say that there is no suicide epidemic among young gender questioning people. This is a very good thing.

Patodp · 02/03/2018 18:11

Reallybadidea
There is a study that full SRS improves a patient's suicidal thoughts temporarily but then they come back.
Full reassignment did not cure their suicidal tendencies.

SusanBunch · 02/03/2018 18:15

Someone I am acquainted with has recently begun the transitioning process by the way. He is a teenager who has already been treated for bipolar disorder, depression, anxiety and various eating disorders. I would say that no matter how accepting society is towards trans people, it is surely going to be extremely mentally taxing to have a deeply held feeling that you don't belong in your own body and feeling you need to mutilate it in order to feel at peace.

Annabelle4 · 02/03/2018 18:17

I'm prepared to be ripped to shreds for what I'm about to say and maybe I am extremely ignorant, but I have wondered if struggling with the sex you were born with and wanting to transition to the opposite 'gender' could in fact be a psychiatric disorder?

Patodp · 02/03/2018 18:21

Susanbunch
Someone with eating disorders and bipolar and that long list of other mental health issues you have identified surely provides evidence that "being Transgender" is another manifestation of their underlying mental health problems.
They are not born in the wrong body.

They are looking for an outlet for internal turmoil and believe they have found it. They need help not full affirmation and a sex change.

Patodp · 02/03/2018 18:26

I have wondered if struggling with the sex you were born with and wanting to transition to the opposite 'gender' could in fact be a psychiatric disorder?

Gender dysphoria is listed in the DSM so they will agree with you.

The problem is Transgender umbrella includes but is not limited to ppl with gender dysphoria. It also includes cross dressers and any teen with an identity crisis.

SusanBunch · 02/03/2018 18:33

Pato, oh I know. This is a very disturbed young man. This is just another manifestation of mental illness. The distress he feels has nothing to do with how people are treating him or how they will treat him when he transitions to become a woman. But he is an example of the 'suicide epidemic', yet in his case it has nothing to do with other people bullying him- it is because he is unwell.

Annabelle yes, I believe gender dysphoria is a psychiatric condition but that generally living and presenting as the opposite sex may relieve some of the symptoms. That's fine and people's psychiatric conditions should not cause them to be discriminated against. What doesn't help is the rest of the world pretending that mentally ill people's perception of themselves is in fact the truth.

upsideup · 02/03/2018 18:41

Annabelle4

As far as I was aware gender dysphoria was officially considered a mental disorder, however I just looked at the NHS website and
Gender dysphoria is a recognised medical condition, for which treatment is sometimes appropriate. It's not a mental illness.

SusanBunch · 02/03/2018 18:45

upside that is interesting. I presume they can no longer say that it is a mental illness because of the negative connotations. However, I would definitely say it was an illness to hold a belief that you were born in the wrong body and feel incapable of accepting your body. Body dysmorphia where people erroneously believe that they are hideously ugly and disfigured is certainly an illness, so what is so different about gender dysphoria?

Annabelle4 · 02/03/2018 18:49

That is interesting but confusing upsideup. Thank you.

mirialis · 02/03/2018 18:57

I've seen this which suggests that hormones and surgery don't help at all:

williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/wp-content/uploads/AFSP-Williams-Suicide-Report-Final.pdf

But I've also seen various trans people saying this has been totally debunked blah blah blah and haven't looked at either in great detail.

I don't think there is any evidence at all that trans kids commit suicide at a greater rate than non trans kids and so it's going on self-report of "attempts". And it strikes me as very dangerous for trans kids to keep hearing they are massively more likely to attempt suicide than other kids when this stat doesn't seem to be based on rigorous or concrete research... unless I've missed that???

SusanBunch · 02/03/2018 19:07

Maybe it doesn't help, but i guess the only people who can honestly say whether or not it does are transsexuals who have undergone hormone and surgery treatment. It's probably unlikely to take away problems completely though and is likely to open up new ones. At the same time, if people want to present as women, that is not an issue for me and I think they are as deserving of respect as any other person. However, that choice to present as a woman does not mean that they now are a woman, should be permitted in women's spaces, or should claim to speak for women. Nor should the fact that they have undergone an internal struggle due to confusion over gender identity be allowed to be used to argue that biological women have some form of 'privilege', rendering their opinion less worthy. Women are literally raped and murdered every day across the world because of their biology. It is certainly not a privilege.

Annabelle4 · 02/03/2018 19:11

I agree with everything you've said SusanBunch.

Swipe left for the next trending thread