Toilets/bathrooms - a summary please

[Machito]

Name change as this is outing. A friend of mine just posted a photo of a poster advocating men in women's toilets. Now I'm in a debate with her. My friend (acquaintance really - young, lesbian I think, I don't know her well but she seems like a very nice person) is advocating for 'trans women' to be allowed into women's toilets. She's also used the term cis.

I'm quite capable of using the search button to read previous threads on this topic, some of which I already recall, and I have already stated my basic beliefs i.e. that it is part of a campaign to enable men to invade women's spaces, with any female opposition to this being dismissed. I have aso stated my opposition to the term cis.

However I'm relatively new to all this, so if anyone could provide a concise summary of any points relating to these topics please, it would be much appreciated.

Now I've been accused (by a man) of mansplaining. I love the irony.

Is this 'keep them busy' tactics?

And I'm transphobic. And men cannot go into women's prisons unless they do X,Y and Z, blah, blah, blah i.e. no violent misogynistic man will ever actually be allowed into a women's prison. (I didn't have time to respond to that one unfortunately.)

Now I've been asked by my friend to stop debating, so your summaries are unnecessary (although you're still welcome to provide them). I intend to do more homework for next time I find myself in this position.

Is this 'keep them busy' tactics?

What does that mean?

Say “why do you think we have women-only toilets in the first place”?

If they say it’s because of safety and a need for privacy, then it’s pretty obvious how this isn’t compatible with letting anyone who fancies it in there.

If they say it’s because we’re hoarding all the good stuff in there, give up.

The main point is that quite a lot of women don't want to be in intimate spaces, partially dressed, vulnerable, with males. Trans or not. Some women don't mind. But they don't get to surrender women's single sex spaces on behalf of all women. Women fought for toilets and other single sex facilities. They are still needed.

Just a few of the reasons why single sex toilets are still needed: privacy and dignity (period stuff, miscarriage, changing clothes). Safety from predatory and creepy men. Sexual assault or abuse meaning that some women cannot tolerate being in confined spaces in close proximity to a penis.

Many women would never use a unisex toilet and would therefore have their daily lives restricted. A return to pre-Edwardian restrictions on women's freedom.

Most transwoman retain their male genitals.

Women need to be able to challenge any creepy trans or non trans men in their toilets without being accused of transphobia.

As you say, there's tons of discussion on these boards. Most of it better articulated than my explanation above.

If biological men are permitted in women only spaces many women will be prevented from using them.
The only fair solution is a gender inclusive third option. Only male rights activists oppose it.

Men already go in to the women's rest rooms and changing rooms to masturbate and hide cameras. Now they will not have to sneak. They can just Self ID as transgender and use whatever facilities they choose.

Thanks! Some of that I managed to refer to, some not. I have now been blocked from even seeing the thread (despite promising not to comment further) however I managed to mention that everything I knew on the topic was learnt from feminists, so who knows maybe I've got someone questioning the madness.

The joys of social media.

Honestly, OP? You'll just go round in circles with your opponents talking Through The Looking Glass shit.

Best response?

C-O-N-S-E-N-T

Just keep typing that in response to everything they say. This is how the penis, and those women who wish to represent the penis, say hello. By announcing consent to penis is no longer required. Because glitter identity.

Just keep saying consent and don't engage with the rest of the magical thinking, straw men, science denial and circular definitions people come up with.

Walk through your local town. As a woman you will always be aware of a few weird blokes around to avoid. Now imagine you need the loo and said weird bloke is in there lawfully. You decide not to use that loo to change your tampon or to take your little 4 year old daughter in there eiether. So you just go home instead and decide to shop online or make only very short trips into town as you know it is not worth going to the loo out and about in case you get unlucky and a weird man is in the loos that you cannot challenge.

I have started responding 2+2=5 on the tweets.

I think you need to ask her what her definition of a transwoman is.

Transwomen have been using female toilets for years without issue. A lot of people arguing your friend's viewpoint in these discussions always seem to forget that fact or just simply choose to ignore it because it's not convenient for them.

Of course when I use the word transwomen here I'm talking about old school transsexuals; the ones who have taken steps/are taking steps to socially and physically transition.

So your friends claim of allowing transwomen to use female toilets is a complete non-issue because they have always been allowed to and have done so quietly for years.

This might sound bad but I think you need to drive home how damaging allowing men who supposedly identify as women into female toilets will be to the old school transsexual women.

Since identity cannot be verified and we just have to take their word for it then I think it's naive to think not so nice people won't take advantage of this trust.

There have been lots of posts here about how predatory men will abuse this trust to hurt or abuse or intimidate women in female spaces.

However there is also nothing stopping a bullying or violent transphobic man from declaring himself a woman and given free reign of female spaces and simply intimidating, bullying or assaulting transwomen in female spaces instead.

Those exact spaces which said transwomen have been using for years without issue. I'm pretty sure those transwomen don't want bullying or violent men being able to self ID into women's spaces any more than we do.

People can't argue that transwomen are in danger of being attacked in the male toilets whilst also arguing that we should just do away with single sex spaces or that changing your gender should be as simple as declaring it.

Where do people think the violent men who are supposedly such a risk to transwomen are going to go in either of those situations?

Answer - they'll be simply be back in the same place as the transwomen thus allowing them to bully them, intimidate them or assault them.

Good stuff. Thanks.

Re. male prisoners: anyone have any links to accounts of 'trans women' with male genitalia in female prisons? Also are there any websites that have concise summaries of feminist opposition to trans appropriation of female spaces, female sport etc?

lmgtfy.com/?q=Trans+women+in+female+prisons

mrsovarall I think you articulated that extremely well. Thank you

lmgtfy.com/?q=Trans+women+in+female+prisons

Ha, good point.

Oh and tell her that the term ‘cis’ is offensive and to please stop using it.

I've been blocked from the thread so I won't be telling her anything, however when she used the term cis I responded by telling her it's a misogynistic prefix. Unfortunately I didn't get the opportunity to explain why I made that claim.

Machito It sounds like you got some good points in there before being blocked. Don't worry. Just hearing that cis a misogynist prefix will be pause for thought for some people. It's cumulative. One day the glasses will be off and they'll understand.

Thanks! I can't say I enjoyed being portrayed as a bigot however, as you say, it's in a good cause. My friend hasn't actually defriended me so hopefully she didn't take too much offence (despite accusing me of being transphobic). Next time I see her in the real world I won't raise the topic, but if she does then I will be sure to refer to the points in this thread that I didn't get to mention last night.