Meet the Other Phone. Flexible and made to last.

Meet the Other Phone.
Flexible and made to last.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Before we conclude we are living in the predicted dystopian future .....

13 replies

IamEarthymama · 28/02/2018 19:36

should we look at the societies created by Marge Pierce, Starhawk, Sheri Tepper, Andre Norton and their ilk? Did they outline the cultural shifts we are experiencing today?
My feminism and activism was greatly affected by the anarcho-feminist writers of the 1980s, their works often published by Women's Press or radical small presses and publishing houses.
I need to reread to be sure but I am convinced that their exploration of relationships, of sexuality, of what it is to be a woman or a man differed from today's 'gender fluidity' in one very important aspect. They saw the people of the future being free to live the lives that fulfilled them, working in areas that suited their natures and allowed them to fully express their real selves. However, and this is the real nub of the difference, issues of power were not linked to this exploration or expression.
They wanted to be their own true selves without taking any status or reality away from anyone else, they saw life as being best lived through a system of 'power-with' not 'power-over'. Starhawk's Fifth Sacred Thing saw people trying to be the best person they could be, saw society as working best as a collective, where, for example, those with nurturing natures cared for small children, those with a talent for healing became medics.
In Marge Piercy's Woman on the Edge of Time 'per' is used for he or she, the society perceives no need to reference gender in conversation. Again, power is disseminated not held by one group over another.
In Andre Norton's Left Hand of Darkness people only have denied sexual characteristics when reproducing.
Sheri Tepper's work in fantasy and science fiction challenges so much of our perceptions but she despises those who use strength and power to dominate and enslave.

I have just put down my thoughts without editing or rereading so excuse my ramblings.
I am more and more convinced that all of this transactivism stems from a deep-seated desire to suppress women and girls.
The hatred for lesbians who dare reject men is palpable and obscene.

I loved those books, I have found always people who subvert gender conventions in clothes attractive, but there is something unkind, dismissive and derisive at play here that worries me greatly.
There is a need for 'power-over', a need that has promoted inequality, class division, racism, and the creation of an elite that cares nothing for the rights of the vast majority of people, especially women.

OP posts:
thebewilderness · 28/02/2018 21:33

Ursula K Le Guin wrote Left Hand of Darkness.

IamEarthymama · 28/02/2018 21:47

Thank you, Of course she did!
That'll teach me to write something st the end of a busy day having just bought a book by Andre Norton
An edit option would be great

OP posts:
Sanderz · 01/03/2018 09:49

Just placemarking for later

KochabRising · 01/03/2018 09:50

I came here to say Ursula le Guin. :)

Things are not moving in a direction I am happy with, no. :/

ReluctantCamper · 01/03/2018 10:50

Funnily enough I have just started to re-read my 25 year old copy of Gibbons Decline and Fall by Sherri Tepper, which in my 20s I felt to be her strongest book. The Gate to Women's Country was pretty openly in favour of eugenics which I could not get behind.

I always wondered about Ursula LeGuin. The first three Earthsea books were so accepting of implicit sexism in the style of Tolkien (I loved them any way) but Tehanu and The Other Wind were pretty RadFem. I wondered if she wrote them almost as atonement.

ReluctantCamper · 01/03/2018 10:52

Let's not look at Sherri Tepper's societies as models BTW, she almost exclusively created dystopias!

AstraiaLiberty · 01/03/2018 10:53

I'm really just posting to say that I agree. Most of the writers you listed were incredibly important to me as a teenage feminist in the early 2000s. For a different, less positive vision I'd add Suzette Haden Elgin, whose SF novel Native Tongue depicts a repressive, patriarchal dystopia of the future, which women resist by creating their own secret language. Language has such power. (For a non-fiction take on the issue, I'd recommend Dale Spender's Man Made Language).

In gender-neutral utopias written by women, everyone might use gender-neutral pronouns and be free to wear and do what they like, but the critical element is, as you say, the complete absence of structural power relations of dominance and submission. We don't see that with the transactivists. They don't just want the freedom to present as they like, they want to shape our reality and police our use of language. There's so much hatred towards women there. It is purely 'power-over'.

As a sidenote has anyone noticed that supposedly egalitarian futures written by men tend to signal equality by having things like mixed-sex communal showers which nobody blinks an eye at, and women in power who act in a stereotypically masculine way. The relations between men and women remain totally unchanged. The female president or scientist or army officer is sexually objectified by the male viewpoint character. The male hero wins his trophy woman by the end of the story. It's obvious to women that the worldbuilding here is inconsistent.

YetAnotherSpartacus · 01/03/2018 10:58

Wasn't a premise of Piercy's utopia (Mattapoisette?) exogenesis? Women had to give up that one 'power' for a truly equal society? I don't personally have a problem with this, I just thought it interesting to mention.

ReluctantCamper · 01/03/2018 11:01

YY regarding the male view. In my head I used to call it the 'Buck Rogers in the 25th century version of equality '. Women will fly space ships but will be sexy and childless and want to sleep with rather tubby middle aged men.

SuperLoudPoppingAction · 01/03/2018 11:34

Sultana's Dream is a really interesting utopia

IamEarthymama · 01/03/2018 15:01

Thanks for responding
I wrote OP in response to a male friend who had heard of and loved these books, much to my surprise.
I was thinking online about why I feel so challenged by transactivists when I was close friends with trans people in the past and count a few amongst my acquaintances now. I loved this writing about changed gender roles.
(I was struggling in a very stereotypical heterosexual relationship at the time which may have affected my response)
It's all about power isn't it?
Though I really didn't like the book the Power; it seemed to have no focus at all.
Anyone else read Starhawk's Fifth Sacred Thing And City of Refuge;? would like her opinion on the current situation.
Re Sheri Tepper; surely one of her stories is been played out in the US at the moment?Grinone where all the powerful men get their comeuppance
critique
Excuse me I am doing sticky crafts with small people at the same time as writing this

OP posts:
IamEarthymama · 01/03/2018 15:03

Thanks for recommending other reading, let's have some more
I will be back in the 80s as I re-read my choices, shaved head and dungarees.....maybe not!

OP posts:
thebewilderness · 01/03/2018 15:56

I am older, so for me Alice Sheldon (James Tiptree) as well as other pulp sci-fi writers were my early introduction to writers who could and could not imagine a future without misogyny.

New posts on this thread. Refresh page