If I don't want to label myself as CIS, does that mean I deny transwomen their womanhood?

[BoredAndBoreder]

I thought I was a kind person. I know lots of people. I am really empathic and people come to me with their problems as I'm a good patient listener. I am trained in counselling skills. I worry about the world. I've had lots of jobs which are in care. I do consider myself to be a feminist.

Today I dared to say on someone's Facebook post that I don't like being labelled as a CIS woman. I just want to be a woman.
I was told that if I don't label myself as a Ciswoman I am denying transwomen their womanhood.

Is this true? I have to change the label I've lived with all my life. And this is more important than how I treat people? 3 letters?

I think the notion of being a kind person always has to come with limits. For self preservation if nothing else.

It's so back to front.

You can't deny a man their womanhood.

The fact that I even have to write a sentence like that shows you how nonsensical this is.

The problem is, you will go down the rabbit hole with all these tangents, unless you can say, or are brave enough to say out loud, that men aren't women.

Every single tortuous paradox and linguistic somersault flows from that one fact.

You might as well cut to the chase, saving yourself eons of frustration, and just say it.

Men aren't women. Next question.

You just respond with "Eh! How does that work?" and wait... worked a treat in one facebook thread DSis was on. I ghosted it for a while, lots of posters joining in asking the annoying one to explain what they meant.

The best comment was "Sorry, lover, I'm Cornish. You're going to have to type slowly" The hideously angry, apoplectic response caused that earthquake! Honest

Nobody is denying anybody anything. They are (I'm not allowed to say men, so) transwomen, we are women. I insist on being able to say I'm a woman without any further clarification.
If clarification is needed when someone says they're a woman, it should be provided by the individual who is actually male, surely to God?!
What they imagine themselves to either be or not to be has no bearing on the status of women who were born women.

You just respond with "Eh! How does that work?" and wait...

That's genius.

A bit of faux innocence to make the other party account for their own impossible assertion.

it did seem to do the trick!

In a similar situation I have taken the following stance:

You shouldn't need to prefix women with either 'trans' or 'cis' if being a women is a matter of choosing to be a woman. In fact, if that is all it is, why use the term woman at all, why not just human. What relevance or significance can there possibly be to a category that doesn't mean anything more than a matter of a belief or feeling.

Asking people to state what is useful about differentiating humans according to gender (not sex) is less common than asking them to define 'woman'. This makes no difference to hardened TRAs but I do find it gets some sympathisers to question their stance, especially when their agenda is one of inclusivity. The idea of why not extend the inclusion of anyone who identifies as a women to anyone tends to get them thinking.

Transwomen don't have any womanhood to deny as they are men.

The experience of being a transwoman can only be had by a man.

OP it sounds like you set great store by being caring and empathetic which I admire (as I'm a hard faced nippy sweetie myself ), but I think part of the reason we're in this shitemare of trans is because women are socialised to be nice and have been nice and accommodating up until now but look where that's got us - our rights as women, our ability even to define ourselves is being eroded.

You have every right to speak up in defense of your feelings and opinions and shouldn't feel like you're not a nice person for doing so.

I don't think even total capitualtion to TIMs and their demands will be enough, so now I think it's time to dispense with the niceness, put on the witch's hat and fight back!

@amagreyhoundhearmeroar
They are (I'm not allowed to say men, so) transwomen,

That is absolutely not the case. They are men, you must say it. You are allowed to say it. Don't censor yourself with this delusion. PLEASE

I meant on here, MouthandTrousers. Interestingly, I haven't been deleted for my subversive views half as much recently, are MNHQ seeing the scales falling from their eyes, I wonder?
I was once threatened with a ban for misgendering! And every single instance of "but he is a man!" deleted within seconds.

The summing up last night at the Woman's Place was that we must all stop using she for a man and call a man a man.

Or we will get nowhere.

If you identify as someone who embrasses and matches men's expectations of how someone born female should act and dress, then CisWoman MIGHT apply to you, if it is how you chose to label yourself.

Otherwise fuck that shit.

Yah! I have an ear worm, brought on by this thread

It started off as a sort of joke, a stereotypical woman song that many drag artistes love to sing... then a couplet got stuck in my head:

Anything you want done, baby
I'll do it naturally

With a startling emphasis on naturally that (though I know it is coming and it is all in my own head) makes me jump

I think I've solved it:

• women are being asked to vacate the space for "women" and to give that space to men who identify as women - so they can call themselves "women";
• at the moment these "women" have suggested the term "cis" as the space that "the women formerly known as women" should move into;
• assuming "the women formerly known as women" don't really think that cis adequately describes how they "feel" but -are fucked over by politicians, the press, anyone else who could and should be calling this out now and end up being accused of a hate crime for not agreeing- are delightfully lovely, accommodating etc so gift the "women" label to "the sub category of men who feel that they are women and have the right to call themselves women to the exclusion of "the women formerly known as women""they could then look for an alternative to the term "cis" to describe themselves;
• "the women formerly known as women" could now decide that they feel the term "wonder women" more adequately describes how they feel and start to refer to themselves as this. So now we have women (aka men who feel they are women) and wonder women (aka women).

But then again.....would we then start a new merry-go-round with the lovely women wanting to call themselves wonder women because obviously who would want to be a woman when you can be a wonder woman and if you shout, scream and stamp your foot society should give you what you want regardless of the rights being trampled? Oh, and personal pronouns.......I'm a wonder woman pass me the and and where is [the world has gone mad] emoticon?

And anyway, even if we decided to compromise, accept the term and use it for ourselves, five minutes later it'd be condemned by the Blue-Hairs as terfy and transphobic because it excludes trans. Cba with them.

Mrs Fogi have a drink, you need it.

Thing is, they are all men.
We won't get through the nonsense unless we say that. I'm going to meet my labour MP and just keep bringing him back to this fundamental point. And reminding him that in his constituency other than a few hundred students/dude bros and handmaidens, no one believes men are women, cos its like santa and the tooth fairy, and the bloody virgin mary - not real, just a story.

My response to your Facebook antagonist might be "Well, yup, denying them womanhood because they are in fact men... And your issue with this is? "

But then I've got an incipient cold and am feeling more than a bit arsey today - coupled with Bergdorf, downhill racers, the blatant homophobia of that twitter-twit someone linked to on another thread claiming that lesbians were basically transmen without dysphoria - my patience is more than a little bit thin, and I am very, very testy right now. (Seems like a good mood to be in to finally fill out the Scottish GRA consultation).

Sorry I posted and ran.

I decided that life was too short to be made to feel guilty. I deleted her from my friend list after a few posts where I attempted to explain how it made me feel. I spend my fucking life trying not to hurt the feelings of others. Mine clearly don't matter. So I'm just going to keep my opinions to myself in future.

I am never going to call myself a Ciswoman. But in real life I rarely talk about myselfin the third person. I know two transwomen. I know them by their names. They know me by mine.
I will never discuss labelling with either of them. Or anyone else. Ever again.

8th rule of misogyny: Men are whatever men say they are and women are whatever men say they are.

I'm so sick of all this bullshit. Why is society pandering to these people????

8th rule of misogyny: Men are whatever men say they are and women are whatever men say they are.

That is so depressingly true.

@BoredAndBoreder

I will never discuss labelling with either of them. Or anyone else. Ever again.

Exactly.

We never had to bother before. We can all see with our eyes.

This person whose status I'd commented on is a woman (not a trans woman). It's someone whose child I have taught.

I have nearly been in tears over all this a few times today.
I was thinking about how when I found feminism I felt like I had a voice, and a tribe. And now it feels like that tribe is under threat. I feel like I am being silenced, all over again. And it's not even a transwoman who has made me feel like that. It's another woman - who thinks I'm a bigot because I don't want to call myself a CISwoman.

It has really really REALLY upset me.

BoredandBoreder
I think most of us understand. I am careful commenting on facebook as I don't want to hear someone who I care for come out with something hostile.
Deleting her was the right thing to do I'm sure. But - I am heartened by how many women on here acknowledge that they started from a position of seeing feminists as bigoted but once they started listening, reading and thinking, they understood the issues.
We mustn't underestimate how successful the #nodebate policy has been for transactivists. They have spawned an intolerant movement full of hatred for women and sadly many women have adopted it with little thought.

Deleting her was an assertive and clear message to give - and will drive her mad