Fox and Owl, the gender neutral couple

[CaptainWarbeck]

This is old but I just came across it. I can't believe I'm agreeing with Piers Morgan. And I do wonder what Susanna Reid thinks, she is very non committal all the way through.

If Fox and Owl are non binary and reject extreme gender stereotypes then surely they have more in common with gender critical feminists really than TRAs?

I agree. Fox and Owl would be great advocates for smashing gender stereotypes. What a shame that they have got sex and gender muddled up and gone down the non binary rabbit hole. They seem like two nice young people who live in a bubble and have little idea of what impact their ideology might have on people outside the bubble.

Piers Morgan came across as a boorish bully. But made some excellent points. He should have let them talk.

So Fox is a woman and Owl is a man (Fox and Owl?!) and they are in a relationship. OK.

But they reject gender stereotypes so Fox presents as more masculine and Owl presents as more feminine. Surely that doesn't make them 'non binary' it just makes them a man and a woman who reject gender stereotypes and have decided that they dig each other?

I agree that these two would be great advocates for breaking gender stereotypes if only they hadn't been sucked into the whole trans thing.

They make a massive fuss about not begin able to get married without "registering" as male or female. I mean they will have birth registration so this is just a box tick on the form. But hey ho, climate change, food insecurity, global inequality, male violence worldwide, lets just get upset about ticking a box here.

What about the drive to try to register girls at birth around the world? What doesn't get counted doesn't get measured, and what doesn't get measured does not get managed. The Gates foundation is spending millions trying to track girls progress to improve lives. These numpties are in cuckoo land.

www.gatesfoundation.org/Media-Center/Press-Releases/2016/05/Gates-Foundation-Announces-80-Mill-Doll-Comm-Closing-Gender-Data-Gaps-Acc-Progress-for-Women-Girls

They are not breaking down gender they are reinforcing it
They are also incredibly boring and attention seeking

this yes. They seem like a regular heterosexual couple comprised of a feminine man and a more masculine woman. The non binary just makes it so much more complicated than it needs to be. Rigid gender stereotypes seem to be creating non binary people.

Fox Fisher was in a channel 4 show about 7 years ago called My Transexual Summer. It followed 6 trans people at various stages of transition over the summer. Been a while since I saw it but I think at the time Fox was just starting to transition physically and was identifying as male. It's interesting to see how their views have changed.

It bothers me that they (plural) say they (plural) reject gender stereotypes but it seems likely that Fox at least is still using testosterone. Changing your body physically to achieve masculine features seems very different to dressing in a masculine way.

Is the hypocrisy of it all that is so staggering. This whole its natural, we are not gender blah blah blah but the tax system, i.e. everyone else, has to pay for me to have expensive drugs and surgery if I want to to be the special me......

Er.... no.

Anyone else think (from the title) that this was about a children's book?
I refuse to believe those are real names (maybe Fox is)

elen

I absolutely thought it was a childrens book

Im so ashamed

Fox is on record as saying that they want to separate the T from LBG as they don't want the T to be associated with "degeneracy". Fox Fisher is a self-hating homophobe. I would feel a lot sorrier for them if they weren't pushing this nonsense on kids.

(Also: that's just a boring straight couple on that telly sofa there. I don't think I've ever used the evergreen Mumsnet phrase "attention-seeking" before, but if there ever was a need for it, here it is.)

And to clarify the "self-hating homophobe" bit, since Fox is now in a boring, entirely straight relationship: my understanding is that Fox originally identified as a lesbian.

So just a smug pretentious couple.

Keith & Candace-Marie

Who puts out the bins?

I feel what makes them noteworthy when compared to most other trans or nonbinary couples is how well they pass for their preferred genders. Or at least Fox really does. So it does feel strange to hear people refer to Fox as just a masculine woman. 100% of people who encounter him in the street would never guess he was born female unless they knew, and will respond to him as they would any other man. Thats not to say that Fox's life is the same as someone born male, certainly, but I also think defining him as a masculine woman is overly simplistic. Technically, sure; but that won't be the reality of his social experience.

FWIW I do find their marriage campaign or whatever it is to be pretty navel-gazing. But they have a right to campaign on the issues they care about, so long as they're not harming anyone else. As far as I can see, removing gender from the marriage process wouldn't make any difference, so why not do it? Lots of people consider certain feminist bugbears equally trivial.

I'm not pro any legislative changes that prioritise trans women's rights above other women's, but this doesn't seem to be that.

Fox is on record as saying that they want to separate the T from LBG as they don't want the T to be associated with "degeneracy". Fox Fisher is a self-hating homophobe.

Blimey, really?

Owl is pretty patronising with their MA in Gender Theory and telling women who feel that biology matters that they are oppressing themselves. You can't theorise your way out of your sexed female body. The not wanting to identify as either a man or woman, fine, but I just find the idea that biology is irrelevant a nonsense and IDGAF if someone with an MA in Gender Theory says otherwise.

But they were intelligent and eloquent on the trans panel thing they did with LM, who really didn't have a clue what to do or say.

As far as I can see, removing gender from the marriage process wouldn't make any difference, so why not do it?

Unfortunately the direction of travel is not to stop there, is it? It's to remove sex from everything. One little piece is ok, each little piece might be or might not be ok, but once sex is no longer recorded all statistical data is meaningless and we have not improved equality we have simply made it absolutely impossible to tell. This is not trivial. This is profound. The baby is going out with the bathwater. Arty peeps like them don't care about data, they want to be registerd as non binary as they are too cool for boring old one or the other. Well not until they want a pension annuity and realise the actuarial rates are different for men and women. Non binary my arse.

I thougth it was abut a nursery rhyme too!

They seem nice enough people but yes, I find it all a bit embarrassingly navel-gazey.

I think young people have always worried about finding out and defining who they are, and what their identity is. I distinctly recall as a teenager being overly focused on defining who I was, with a strong emphasis on how I was seen by others. There was an element of wanting to stand out; to be special or different.

At that time, youngsters defined themselves through the tribes with which they identified; almost all of them to do with music and/or fashion. Goths, emos, townies, hippies, ravers, crusties, baggies, etc etc. Every generation has these and young people can get very absorbed and obsessed with their ‘culture’.

I appreciate that true gender dysphoria is a different thing, as is AGP, but I do wonder whether for many of these younger trans/non-binary people it is just a more extreme version of the self-absorption many teenagers and young adults go through.

Fox is on record as saying that they want to separate the T from LBG as they don't want the T to be associated with "degeneracy". Fox Fisher is a self-hating homophobe. I would feel a lot sorrier for them if they weren't pushing this nonsense on kids.

Nope - as much as this whole heap of shite annoys and frustrates me - Fox has been misrepresented and never meant anything of the kind.

I also thought it was about a children's book. I'd read half the thread before I realised otherwise!

Fox has been misrepresented and never meant anything of the kind

You are quite right. They said deviancy, not degeneracy. The video seems to have been removed (I wonder why) but it is referenced here:

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/gendertrender.wordpress.com/2016/06/08/the-anti-gay-agenda-of-mermaids-uk-transgender-children-charity-and-political-lobby/amp/

Yup, you are right, ItsAllGoing - it was deviancy, not degeneracy. (I couldn't find the vlog and just remembered that it was an insulting word beginning with "d".)

Mermaids spokespeople have form for saying homophobic nonsense, then when they get called out for it, going "oops! We misspoke! We aren't homophobic at all, honest!"

I don't see how referring to something Fox said on camera, filmed at Fox's behest and uploaded by Fox, is "misrepresenting" Fox.

I feel the same as waterlego, i used to have boyfriends who would act femme to be bowiesque and pretend they were bi as that was cool and shocking and different. I think social media has upped the anti for trying to be different. Also i do genuinely think the kids of today are struggling more with who they are and growing up as its a lot harder to be an adult if you cant find a job, cant afford to live away from your parents etc