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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

The psychiatric view of trans

14 replies

MyTerfNeedsRolling · 27/02/2018 07:35

Fascinating piece on Twitter by @lascapigliata8

I often hear trans activists claim that they are so special, the entire field medicine "knows nothing about them" and on that account they dismiss all medical opinion that doesn't validate their demands. As a doctor, I disagree.
Humans are largely the same, medically speaking. There are some more or less obvious and important differences in anatomy and physiology of individuals. Sometimes a large group of individuals can be recognised based on those differences, other times differences are individual.
Say your heart points to the wrong side of your chest (dextrocardia) - rare but important. Or ulnar nerve runs in the wrong position - rare and not very important unless you throw a ball a lot. Or your body becomes resistant to insulin (diabetes) - common and very important.
Sometimes 99% of humans can be divided into two groups based on one important difference, for example whether they contribute to reproduction by producing ova (women) or sperm (men). This function is like any other important function, like producing insulin to manage blood sugar.
The fact something went wrong in an individual human so they don't produce gametes, for example, is analogous with someone's pancreatic cells failing to produce insulin. These are abnormalities, and medicine studies them in order to help, if possible.
Abnormalities aren't "variations of normal" because they prevent or limit normal function. Diabetics don't have "alternative yet normal metabolisms", nor can they think their way into managing glucose without insulin. Some abnormalities interfere with life more than others.
For example, not being able to concieve a child isn't life threatening to anyone other than that potential child, whose existance isn't assured anyway due to incredible complexity of conception, gene combination and development. Which doesn't mean people won't be upset about it.
I like to think about body and mind as a continuum, except body can exist without the mind but so far, it's not possible for it to be the other way around. Literally everything that happens to our body registers in the mind somehow, whether we are aware of it at the time or not.
This is why I love psychiatry, we focus on the mind while being mindful of the body, while a lot of traditional medicine and especially surgery focuses almost myopically on the body alone. "Refer to psych" is the throwaway comment often applied to difficult patients.
Some of the most notoriously difficult patients from a doctor's PoV are those who are paranoid or deluded or have personality disorders, all of which can not only make their medical problem worse, they can create the problem, or an appearance of it.
Depression is sometimes reported as a headache, a delusion as desperate need to amputate body parts, a hallucination as repeated attempts to remove alien micro chip from one's abdomen, anxiety as hypochondria, panic attack as heart attack.
Medical doctors naturally pursue physical diagnosis at first, but at some point it becomes clear it's psychological. If they are seeing these people over time, they can start to feel "heart-sink" because of patient's distress and their inability to help them.
What a lot of people don't know is that most doctors are terrible optimists. We are reluctant to give bad prognosis or simply give up. This is why we keep referring these patients to each other, hoping the expert in a different field of medicine might have a cure. Often they do.
But when they don't the patients inevitably end up being psychiatry's problem. And that's ok, that's what we're here for, it's why we are trained as doctors first, so we can keep looking after the mind, while remaining mindful of the body.
It's not rare for a psychiatrist diagnose a medical illness, especially if it's rare and the patient hasn't been to too many other specialists. For medicine to work like this, there have to be many more similarities between individuals who present with symptoms, than differences.
We don't learn many unique medicines. I don't swap between huge bodies of knowledge depending on whether a man or a woman or a trans person walks through the door. Learning myriad small, more or less important ways our bodies can be different IS medicine.
Sometimes tiny differences can be incompatible with life. Often much bigger ones, like a limb missing, can be managed a lot more easily. What you see isn't always what you get. Ideas and treatments change, but bodies have been the same for millions of years.
Doctors and vets speak about mammals with comparable knowledge, his is how much all mammalian bodies resemble each other, let alone within the same species. In fact, vets are incredible, they have to learn so much more, although their patients don't have the same expectations 🤗
Human medicine is often about managing expectations, and this is where approch that larely ignores the mind, met with unwarranted optimism, can struggle. Transgender surgery, for example. I heard many surgeons say that they "construct genitals".
Truth is, they'd fail an exam in med school if they claimed that surgical cavity is the same as embryonologically developed vagina. That artificially created phallus that has to be inflated through a pump and lacks urethra is the same as penis. And yet they say it all the time.
They also claim that they are changing people's sex, knowing that they aren't making men capable of producing ova, and vice versa. They say it because they are enamoured with their own skills, a bit narcissistic, and they genuinely want to help their patients.
Even most blunt and practical doctors are very emphatic, and sometmes this manifests in downplaying negative outcomes, and saying things in a way that won't upset the patients. They don't like confrontation and have an irrational belief that all will be well.
When things go wrong, they tend to blame, hide or refer elsewhere. This is broadly speaking how it came 2 b that healthy bodies are mutilated medically in order to cure feelings, and how the evidence that outcomes don't justify the risks didn't stop the practice, it expanded it.
To children. "If we could only get to them young enough, the outcomes would be better" they say, swayed by how "passable" an androgynous teenager looks in gender non-conforming presentation. It's a bit like the power of advertising.
But that teen will grow up, and if their bodies were medically and surgically mutilated, they'll also have chronic medical conditions as a consequence. They can do more treatments to make it look or work better they say. But do they stop to think what they are doing?

I can't imagine how hard it is for someone who is desperately unhappy and confused about their body, to decide to live with all the consequences of doctors trying to make their bodies look like something they are not. To think they're not being told the whole truth is terrifying
It's not that trans people are so different, it's that they are being failed by medicine that encourages treatments with poor outcomes, like unquestioning affirmation of inner feelings and ever faster and earlier access to drugs and surgery.
There may not be a cure. Or the cure might lie in curing society of its prejudices first. Or we'll find a cure in the future, meanwhile we must try to alleviate suffering. Patients may not be happy with us, and we need 2 b there for them anyway. Without causing additional harm.
And before you repeat a mindless phrase, ask yourself: Is a schizophrenic born "in the wrong body"? A child with leukemia? A woman struggling with body dysphoria in a pornified world? If you pull that thread, the whole yarn unravels.

OP posts:
Fishfingersandwichnocheese · 27/02/2018 08:55

I’d be interested on your thoughts on gender dysphoria in relation to other psychiatric conditions - I remember reading about people who believe they should have their limbs amputated to give then the body they “should” have.

A poster on another thread also mentioned her anorexia and how she felt her body didn’t fit as in her head it was fat. But the treatment wasn’t to make her thinner or surgery. It was to fix her mind.

Why is gender dysphoria viewed so differently and essentially treated by feeding into it ?

OrderOnline · 27/02/2018 09:07

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

HughE · 27/02/2018 10:21

Doctors never like to admit that something they've done has harmed people. Nonetheless, the fact remains that they've exposed millions of unborn babies worldwide to high doses of drugs that act as chemical castration agents in adult men, through the use of estrogens and progestins as treatments for preventing miscarriages and premature births.

During the second half of the pregnancy, testosterone plays a crucial role in driving male brain development, and here we are in a situation where probably greater than 1 percent of the population in Western countries have been exposed to more than enough synthetic female hormones to shut down testosterone production in an adult man, during the critical period when sex differences in the brain are thought to arise. The surprising thing is actually that more haven't come out as trans.

Datun · 27/02/2018 12:13

MyTerfNeedsRolling

Fascinating insight. I take it you have cut and pasted what someone else has said?

Is that because you are finding it interesting, like me. Or do you have any expertise yourself?

Because I would like to ask questions, if you do!

DodoPatrol · 27/02/2018 12:18

Links, HughE, to data showing an increased level of transgenderism in those exposed prenatally to oestrogen and progestins?

zonedouttortoise · 27/02/2018 12:31

Appreciate the post - Social media seems to play such a role in ab-normalising the normal developmental stages of children and teens re sexuality. Don't underestimate the thought reform at play from the corporates who will make profit from drugs, surgery & futures market betting on Big Pharm shares going up. Follow the money is always good advice.

This is the first generation of kids raised on SM and its exposure is toxic imo, hence why none of the tech owners allow their kids on it (Gates, Zuckerberg, Cook(his extended family)). The corporates have honed their skills of making docile consumers of the public. What's at play are the tactics of creating problems and offering solutions the corporates want you to buy, acceptance of the unnatural and unacceptable by degree (drop by drop) e.g. Transgender plus also appealing to the emotions by crying wolf (I'm offended, Transphobic etc) - all Thought reform tactics

BeyondDeadlySiren · 27/02/2018 13:37

It's from memory, but I think the study I read about increased hormone exposure from plastics was related to zebrafish.

There have also been studies that vaguely potentially link it into humans, but it was regarding "feminised" males, not transgender males. Iirc of course.

BeyondDeadlySiren · 27/02/2018 13:38

I did a quick search to see if I could find the research I was thinking of, but nothing stood out and I cba to read through six million vaguely related articles right now Grin

smithsinarazz · 27/02/2018 14:06

Thanks for this. I had wondered what the medical view of this was.

MyTerfNeedsRolling · 27/02/2018 14:13

Haha Datun This is absolutely not my work and Id last about 2 minutes trying to talk knowledgeably about it! Its c+p from Twitter. But if i see you with your penis beaker this evening at WPUK we could chat about it. Medical stuff really interests me and the psych element just adds another dimension 😀

OP posts:
boatyardblues · 27/02/2018 14:15

Links, HughE, to data showing an increased level of transgenderism in those exposed prenatally to oestrogen and progestins?

I don’t buy it. If all these TIM are so washed with female hormones during pregnancy, it’s feminised them physiologically, why are they living as men for years & fathering children? Sounds like cod science to legitimise late transitioning men.

Lady brain is such an insulting concept too & largely ignores the huge diversity in bio women’s thinking, interests and presentation. But what the fuck do we know?

Datun · 27/02/2018 14:31

I don’t buy it. If all these TIM are so washed with female hormones during pregnancy, it’s feminised them physiologically, why are they living as men for years & fathering children? Sounds like cod science to legitimise late transitioning men.

And why do sex offenders account for half of TIM prisoners?

And does something in the water also produce men who fetishise women?

And why do TRAs who say they are women, routinely threaten to rape and batter women?

I'm perfectly willing to believe that something causes gender dysphoria.

But gender dysphoria is a dot in the distance over this issue.

Somethingweird · 27/02/2018 14:34

That twitter piece would be a good basis for a newspaper article.

HughE · 27/02/2018 20:48

DodoPatrol
Links, HughE, to data showing an increased level of transgenderism in those exposed prenatally to oestrogen and progestins?

There's only one study in existence where the authors have looked specifically at gender identity in people who were exposed to cross-sex hormones in utero. This one:

diethylstilbestrol.co.uk/prenatal-diethylstilbestrol-exposure-in-males-and-gender-related-disorders/

In that study, around 30 percent of the DES "sons" participating in the study had gender dysphoria. There were also high rates of depression, hypogonadism (chronic below normal male testosterone production), and infertility. Having seen the message archive from the study, many of the participants also had genital abnormalities (undescended testicles, hypospadias, micropenis), all things that are associated with abnormally low androgen levels during prenatal development.

Here is the personal story of Dr Dana Beyer, who coauthored that study (and is a DES baby who, after some deliberation, was assigned male at birth, but is now living as a woman):

desdaughter.com/2013/08/15/des-other-daughters-neglected-evidence-of-prenatal-gender-development/

I've found a study, produced by a completely separate group, Hhorages France. This study isn't looking at gender identity, instead it's documenting very high rates of serious mental illnesses and suicides among children who were prenatally exposed to synthetic estrogens or progestins.

www.intechopen.com/books/state-of-the-art-of-therapeutic-endocrinology/behavioral-and-somatic-disorders-in-children-exposed-in-utero-to-synthetic-hormones-a-testimony-case

They also documented high rates of physical intersex-related abnormalities among the hormone exposed children.

This is an interview with Dr June Reinisch, one of the world's leading experts on the effect of prenatal exposure to synthetic hormones on adult personality and behaviour.

www.germlineexposures.org/reinisch-qa.html

In it is a link to a paper she produced in 1977, which is a bit of an eye opener. It would seem that psychologists have known since at least the 1970s that children prenatally exposed to these drugs have measureable, lifelong alterations to their personality and behaviour. Furthermore, although her paper didn't support that finding, it appears that for a time at least, psychologists thought that prenatal exposure to progestins could markedly increase intelligence. Maybe that's why progestins were allowed to remain on the market after DES was pulled (when you'd think even people as greedy and unscrupulous as pharmaceutical industry executives wouldn't risk continuing to expose unborn babies to synthetic hormones, after what happened with DES).

Dr Reinisch describes the effects she found during her research as subtle, although from personal experience I can tell you they're anything but. It's just that the human brain is far more adaptable than the brains of most animals, and those of us who've had these hormone exposures learn from a young age to imitate the behaviour of people of the sex we've been assigned to, without even realising that's what we're doing.

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