Meet the Other Phone. Child-safe in minutes.

Meet the Other Phone.
Child-safe in minutes.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

The National: "Why plans to change our gender identity laws must be prison-proof"

11 replies

miri1985 · 24/02/2018 02:56

thenational.scot/comment/columnists/16042056.Why_plans_to_change_our_gender_identity_laws_must_be_prison_proof/

Really good article, this is the quote that stuck out for me

" ...[U]nder a self-ID system a “male prisoner claiming to be a woman” would become legally indistinguishable from a transgender woman prisoner. Advocates of self-ID point to other countries where such systems have been introduced, saying there’s no evidence of false or fraudulent claims, but it’s not clear how exactly a false claim would be identified. If being trans is a matter of self-ID, how can any claim be said to be “genuine” or “false”? "

OP posts:
LittleLebowski · 24/02/2018 07:53

Wow - so it is a criminal offence when someone has a GRC for this to be disclosed when that info is acquired by someone else in an official capacity? Never knew this. Looked up section 22 of GRA act, but can't work all the exemptions out - would it mean say that if I requested a female nurse to do a smear, you wouldn't know if that person had had a GRC because it couldn't be disclosed? Reading that article, it sounds like the getting a GRC isn't tough enough let alone self-ID.

busyboysmum · 24/02/2018 08:00

I agree with that. The GRC is a legal fiction. It means nothing really as you can't change your biological sex. The GRA should be repealed IMO, people should be able to present as they like but we should do away with the pretence that they are other than they are.

Speedy85 · 24/02/2018 08:13

Wow - so it is a criminal offence when someone has a GRC for this to be disclosed when that info is acquired by someone else in an official capacity? Never knew this. Looked up section 22 of GRA act, but can't work all the exemptions out - would it mean say that if I requested a female nurse to do a smear, you wouldn't know if that person had had a GRC because it couldn't be disclosed? Reading that article, it sounds like the getting a GRC isn't tough enough let alone self-ID.

You are correct.

I got rather annoyed at someone on another thread yesterday saying “I’m sure that if you were going to have an intimate medical examination done by a trans person the hospital would ask if you were OK with that first” - this is absolutely wrong because then if you said you didn’t mind they would bring in the trans employee and have effectively outed them as trans to you, contrary to the law.

LittleLebowski · 24/02/2018 08:42

Really? No exemption for initiate medical/rape examinations/being the female member of staff for the girls on a school trip etc?
So to get it right, someone can get a GRC, still maintain a working knob, get a big thrill from inserting a speculum up my vag and you wouldn't even know unless it was totally obvious and you wouldn't even be asked if you minded?!!!!!
If so, it's so much worse than I thought.

LangCleg · 24/02/2018 08:53

It should be noted that Ireland's self-ID law has an exception for prisons. No male can ever be sent to a female prison.

In terms of the UK - even if we ignore safety for women and girls, the female prison estate is tiny (circa 5-6k capacity) with barely any provision for dangerous prisoners as there are so few dangerous female prisoners. We couldn't even accommodate a large batch of TIMs.

I think, at the absolute bare minimum, nobody already convicted of MVAWG or sex offences should be eligible for a GRC. And GRCs should be withdrawn if a holder subsequently commits such offences. Male pattern offending has no place in women's prisons. And male pattern offenders have no place in women's spaces outsdie prisons.

I have seen suggested elsewhere that the GRC process should include a comprehensive psychological risk assessment. Applicants should be assessed for their understanding of boundaries, consent and other red flags that indicate a propensity for male pattern offending. GRC applications should be declined if the person cannot perceive of women as full human beings with rights to boundaries and consent.

"Genuine" transitioners should have nothing to fear from such a process and, indeed, their own safety post-transition would be enhanced by it.

Ereshkigal · 24/02/2018 08:58

Advocates of self-ID point to other countries where such systems have been introduced, saying there’s no evidence of false or fraudulent claims,

They don't tend to point to the parts of the US where they have it, or to Canada funnily enough. They point to Ireland and Malta which is disingenuous (what a shocker that is) as they don't have the same equality laws for trans people or cultural understanding that we do. And from everything I've heard they don't put TIMs into the female prison estate in Ireland, whatever their status.

Ereshkigal · 24/02/2018 09:07

The recent Fair Play for Women research suggests that just under half of TIMs in prison are in prison for sex offences. And this was then backed up by government figures suggesting it was around half.

fairplayforwomen.com/transgender-prisoners/

Speedy85 · 24/02/2018 09:26

Really? No exemption for initiate medical/rape examinations/being the female member of staff for the girls on a school trip etc?

To my knowledge, there is nothing in the law which even requires the trans person to disclose that they are trans and have a GRC if they obtained it prior to their current employment.

TerfyMcTerface · 24/02/2018 09:29

So to get it right, someone can get a GRC, still maintain a working knob, get a big thrill from inserting a speculum up my vag and you wouldn't even know unless it was totally obvious and you wouldn't even be asked if you minded?!!!!!

Not only that, Lebowski, but if you complained you'd be a transphobic bigot who needs to be re-educated.

TerfsUp · 24/02/2018 09:33

Not only that, Lebowski, but if you complained you'd be a transphobic bigot who needs to be re-educated.

That is horrifying because it's true.

LittleLebowski · 24/02/2018 09:56

Thank you all for explaining; there are times I regret beginning to read this boards! Unbelievable!
#metoo/times-up etc, but if I want to know who's looking up my vagina, I'm transphobic? They can all really fuck off now.

New posts on this thread. Refresh page