An evening with the Mermaids and the GRA in my town

[Elendon]

There is going to be an evening discussing the GRA hosted by the local Labour Women's CLP soon and I want to attend this event.

I'm no longer a member of Labour but have been until recently. I would like to attend.

What are the questions I should ask? I know that any questioning will brand me a TERF and a bigot, but how can I phrase the questions in such a way that opens up the discussion.

Somersetter
Gender Recognition Act (GRA) 2004, Section 16:
'The fact that a person's gender has become the acquired gender under this Act (a) does not affect the descent of any peerage or dignity or title of honour, and (b) does not affect the devolution of any property.'

I think you can possibly choose to leave your hereditary peerage to your daughter, but if you don't the first born son is the only one who can claim it. There's a specific exemption in the GRA that getting a GRC would have no bearing so as a woman you would be ineligible. The GRC part is right as I've just checked the legislation, can anyone comment further on the general primogeniture issue?

Primogeniture still applies with ?some ?all inherited titles and the wealth that comes with them, ? Seat in lords if applicable, that sort of thing. The titled/ landed gentry types.

It's been stopped for the royal family but continues for the rest, and there is a rule that even if a woman legally changes sex (under current rules) this will not make her eligible to inherit over a younger brother.

Meaning, sex still applies when it's important to rich & powerful people.

Cross posted with UpstartCrow

I was quite shocked when I find out that the removal of primogeniture rules wasn't across the board, it was just the heir to throne.

This was before the trans stuff.

Ah I understand now - I was thinking of normal handing down of money and property rather than titles etc.

I will indeed do faux innocence. Thank you all so much for your valuable input.

I have a gay daughter. That's how she presents herself.

I would like it if you would ask them if they know that what they are doing to children is viewed by ordinary people as obedience training.

Perhaps raise my main concern - if asking questions make one a TERF, how can women protect their rights? If they are so certain they are in the right, why can we not have a civilised discussion?

There’s really no defence of the whole no debate thing, so this should get them on the back foot.

My life has been pretty comprehensively ruined by the drugs they are giving children as puberty blockers, and I was an adult when I had them (for only two years). No one wants to hear it - the message has to be they’re safe and reversible. It terrifies me.

Fancy, are you the same poster who has discussed puberty blocker drugs from experience before? You don't have to answer if you'd rather not.

Elendon

Ah. Then you are in a unique position to challenge the homophobia.

I would ask the direct question.

"I'm being told that my lesbian daughter is transphobic for not considering trans-women in her pool of partners. How do you suggest I deal with that?"

You will be told that nobody should be coerced into sex. You will be told that people shouldn't have to give a reason why they don't want to have sex with someone.

All evading the actual question.

Get them to nail it down.

If they insist on being evasive, ask them outright if it's acceptable for intact men to call themselves lesbians. And is it unacceptable for lesbians to disagree.

Asked both those questions at the same time.

You could just lead with both those questions, actually. And get to the crux of it. Because they will try and fanny about muddying the waters.

It would be interesting to get them to say on record that homosexuality is not same-sex dependent. Any longer.

Trans advocates get kinda ragey when their faith is questioned.

Presumably you will only get to ask a limited number of points so you need to be very selective. I suggest:

Forget primogeniture. It affects too few people and doesn't resonate with people's lives.

Don't self ID.

The question about your lesbian relative is good, but make sure you say that nearly all TW keep their penis. The audience will be pro gay rights. Pointing out the incompatibility of trans rights and gay rights has mileage.

Don't be afraid to make it simple. We are old hands at this but the average person in the street isn't sure if a 'transwoman' is a woman that's become a man or vice versa.

I would ask about the effect of including TW on women's statistics.
AWS or trans women being counted in female crime statistics are good examples because you can reference actual numbers e.g. the impact trans women have had on increasing violent/sex crime by "women", the disproportionate amount of TW in initiatives for females e.g. Jo Cox programme
Say it means a De facto men/not men classification and means biological females can't achieve parity because their opportunity is being reduced by competing with males viewed as "not men".
Yes TERFY as, but anything you see will be viewed like that by TRAs so I wouldn't worry.
I'm guessing the CLP is being asked to contribute to policy on all women shortlists and this debate is part of that, so put it front and centre.

Also elendon I have seen you post a lot, you are articulate and make good points. So be confident in yourself. People appearing not to "get" what you say in this context are likely to be trying to divert rather than genuinely misunderstand. Bear that in mind and don't let that put you off!

Perhaps raise my main concern - if asking questions make one a TERF, how can women protect their rights? If they are so certain they are in the right, why can we not have a civilised discussion?

I will FancyNewBeesly

if it's acceptable for intact men to call themselves lesbians. And is it unacceptable for lesbians to disagree

I might re frame this Datun.

Is it acceptable for trans men to call themselves gay and is it unacceptable for gay men to disagree?

Is it acceptable for trans men to call themselves gay and is it unacceptable for gay men to disagree?

Nice one.

If you can bear to, say transmen with vaginas.

Most people simply don't realise that the vast majority of trans-people, male or female never have surgery. It's one of the key things to try and get out there.

If you get a chance, another question you could try is:

According to stonewall, cross dressing fetishists are now to be called transwomen. How do we tell the difference between a man who has gender dysphoria and a man who fetishises women?

As an aside, I think it's incredibly useful to keep dragging transgenderism back to gender dysphoria. There is zero reason to transition, and be called a woman, if you don't have it. Basically that's just a piss take.

The narrative is running towards gender dysphoria being completely unnecessary to transition.

So what are you left with? Piss takers and fetishists.

There is no way that Mermaids can be unaware of AGP.

And there is every reason for them to brush it under the carpet.

A children's charity dealing with trans people, half of whom have got a fetish, is not a good look.

But I'm assuming they have to deal with it? They must have parents whose sons have it.

Ask them for their leaflets on young men with autogynephilia.

Loss of vagina in Trans men really means a loss of urinary and sexual function though. It's not recommended as a surgical procedure unless there is cancer involved and you want another couple of years with your family - it's incredibly invasive and has trauma as a result. I knew someone who had this done, whilst in hospital. She was a woman to me, despite her feeling like she had been internally scalped. She felt like a robot. I know now she is dead. But she was a woman, lived as a female and died a female. Sorry, getting a bit emotional here.

Sorry Elendon

That sounds incredibly traumatic. For all concerned.