middle-aged feminist

[bananawolf]

Why are 'middle-aged feminists' so loathed in society by younger people? Doesn't that describe the average student's Mum?

We live in a very youth-centric, ageist society. I think it encourages younger people to be dismissive of the old and their opinions.

Interesting first post OP. Why do you say middle aged feminists are loathed by society? How do you think that is relevant to a discussion on feminism on this board? What are you hoping to get out of this discussion?

Because middle aged feminists are more likely to see through bullshit. We see TIMs for what they are, are more aware of the internal misogyny we have grown up with, see sex work as the abuse (of mainly woman & girls) that it is, we have no interest in being ‘nice’ because society expects that of us, we have learnt that our men do not have the right to sex and we’re not failing in our relationships if we say no sex tonight fuck off and let me sleep, etc. We are the ones that give feminists a ‘bad name’ because misogynistic men and women can point at us and use us an example of ‘ugly old women’ in order to excuse crap behaviour towards females.

Many younger women are reluctant to call themselves feminists because they are afraid of being lumped in with ‘the man hating brigade’ because they haven’t realised that these terms are a way of training women to stay out of feminism and remain subservient to men. Thankfully there are many wonderful younger women on Mumsnet that are finding THEIR voice rather than repeating the misogynistic voices they’ve grown up with.

I'm always a bit (read: surprised and pissed off) that my right-on, virtue signalling teens are passionately keen to demonstrate how much they deplore racism, homophobia and transphobia, with sexism coming at the bottom of that list and ageism absolutely not appearing on it at all. Being dismissive of older people seems to be part of the deal.

I think Brexit is involved, if that doesn't sound ridiculous. At the time of the referendum result there was a lot of talk about how the older generation had shafted the young, and I think it gave ageism a sort of legitimacy.

I don't know Blind I think every generation challenges their parents opinions.

I think it there is a wider issue that different groups of people aren't listening to others viewpoints and having actual debates.

I think feminists of all ages should be listening to and debating with each other. Both have perspectives that are valuable.

I don't think creating or perpetuating dichotomies as the phrasing of the OP's post does is helpful for anyone.

Ask MNHQ to check my posting history if you think I am a troll ouchbirthhurted. Like many other posters I namechange regularly.

I ask this question after seeing a facebook post recently by a younger relative which was complaining about 'middleaged feminists.'
I've seen the same theme today on another social media page.

As a middle aged woman I'm wondering why age should be a factor at all.

Because many young people have bought the “all the battles have been won” bullshit. And the “How can you call yourself a feminist you wear makeup/sleep with men “ bullshit. And the “burlesque is empowering” bullshit. They don’t realize that rights can be lost as well as won.

Fair answer banana

There was a great article by a feminist writer saying she shouldn't matter we should be united to tackle the issues together whatever the age.

I wish I could remember who wrote it, does anyone else have a link?

I started a thread about this recently after an outrageous demand on 'older' women;
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3143740-Older-women-should-step-aside-says-Laura-Hudson

Divide and rule is an effective strategy. If it didn't work, women would not have bound their daughters feet, or mutilated their genitals, for fear that men would not marry their daughters.

If it wasn’t for the ‘middle aged feminists’ your arrogant younger relative wouldn’t be posting on Facebook as they would be too busy doing all the ‘women’s duties’ that we grew up being expected to do.

Hi ouch. I know what you mean and I agree about that. But there are definitely different, non-Western societies where there is far more respect for elders.

I won't be able to find the literature but I recall a thought experiment conducted in different cultures in which people were given the boat dilemma where they had to throw out one person from the boat in order for the others to survive. A selection of people were in the boat: old, young, male female etc. The Western participants were far more likely to throw out an old person on grounds of the good innings argument. The non-Western culture participants were far less likely to do this and were more likely to throw out a young person as less wise or having contributed less to their society.

It was very enlightening as to how old and young people are valued differently in different cultures.

Blindyeo that's an interesting post. I'm sure I've read something about older women being more valued in non-western cultures also - possibly native American culture?

Age is a protected characteristic, but it is socially acceptable to criticise people for their age on social media - particularly (especially) if they happen to be women. The only time I've seen it called out is here on MN.

I’m old. I don’t want to be “respected”. I just want to be considered a normal member of society. And I don’t want my feminism to be viewed through the prism of age.

I'm nobody's mother. And frankly, it's ageist only to be seen through this prism.

Sometimes this dismissal of 'middle aged women' gets me mad - but then again sometimes I laugh bitterly and think 'Yes well, you'll learn'.

Racists don't become BAME. Anti-semites don't wake up one morning to find they've become Jewish. But ageists will get old one day so I take some comfort in that.

My favourite was Marie Le Conte saying "an older feminist" had asked why young feminists hated men so much, because obviously no feminist over the age of 25 has ever been called a "lesbo man-hater". Apparently they hold men to higher standards than we do/did.

What a steaming pile of crap.

I have only recently become a feminist, in middle age. Only now do I see how the whole world is set up for the advantage of men, and that speaking up about it leads to us being shouted down. When I was younger - well-educated, financially independent, child of a fiercely independent mother - I thought the battles had been won.

Now seeing what young women are supposed to find empowering - pornography, hyper sexualised clothing - it's just another way of keeping women in their place.

And identity politics is a prime example - transwomen are women- is just another (scary) example of men telling women what to think.

So what is wrong with middle aged feminists is that they are daring to call out the bullshit.

Coincidence! On Radio Four Extra just now was an extract from 'The World Until Yesterday' by Jared Diamond on the subject of the treatment of the elderly in different societies. I didn't catch all of it so can't comment but will listen later.

www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b01r9skn

I'm sure I've read something about older women being more valued in non-western cultures also - possibly native American culture?

I'm always sceptical about "the things are so much better in a culture/society that isn't mine" stance. Especially when the reference is to something as nebulous as "Native American culture"

Yes- the "indigenous people" who have everything sorted.....

My very intelligent and we'll read daughter truly beleives that there is no need for feminism in this day and age. She feels that legislation is there to protect us and that all the flights for that are over. We have laws and that's enough. If someone breaks a law by attacking a woman, not paying her enough or being disciminatory then we take them to the courts and they deal with it. Hence no more need for feminists to keep on fighting.

She agrees that in other countries that fight is not yet over.

I try to explain the concept of being socialised into certain roles etc and she just doesn't get it. Because that's not her expereince - becuase I brought her up to be what she wants to be.

So I think we all did too good a job. Our daughters all think they can do what they want, be what they want and that no one will stop them - becuase the law is now on their side. be cuase we taught them to be self reliant and strong.

No wonder they think feminism is dead...

I fully expect my daughter to be utterly shocked the first time she encounters the unfairness that is all around her. Then she might have a little more respect for us middle aged feminists and get why we haven't given up the fight.

The old are respected in my culture too. What it usually boils down to is that the young are supposed to do as they are told. The old lady is still less than an old man so no change there.

The old lady will often have to listen to the younger men (or very visibly take his side so that he stays on her side) but not the younger women.

The young women is bossed around by all.

The young men are kept in check by the old men - so that's a plus.

As a young woman, I really didn't like it!

Bit of a straw man there surely Bertrand? Nobody said any other culture was perfect, only that they have different values and attitudes about older people.

It's rather ironic. Normally on MN people get comments hinting they're racist as soon as they post anything critical of a non-Western culture

Conflict sells newspapers and magazines, or linkbait. My mum grandmum and I talked about this when I was 17 in 1963. They said it is one of the oldest unacknowledged divide and conquer strategies in their experience. It works even when we see the wires.

I understand the gossip amongst retired women is that they resent the young under 30 for being so disrespectful towards them, lots of it wasn't like that in our day.

I blame OJ and his gang dividing the nation, they spread misery in society. What a sad thing to be responsible for!