Can someone explain to me what the situation is with men gaining access to female areas, by saying they identify as women? Is this a thing?

[Happyland88]

Just that really, is there a law in place already which means men can access women only areas, purely by saying they’re a women? Without having been through any transition at all?

I don’t know much about this debate so I’m hoping some of you can educate me please. Thank you.

Unfortunately yes, thats mostly true.
The Tories have re written The Equality Act, so that a man can say he intends to change sex, will receive full protection form his first GP appointment, then he does not need to do anything further to gain full protection as a woman.

www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/15/section/7

7 Gender reassignment
(1)A person has the protected characteristic of gender reassignment if the person is proposing to undergo, is undergoing or has undergone a process (or part of a process) for the purpose of reassigning the person's sex by changing physiological or other attributes of sex.

(2)A reference to a transsexual person is a reference to a person who has the protected characteristic of gender reassignment.
(3)In relation to the protected characteristic of gender reassignment—
(a)a reference to a person who has a particular protected characteristic is a reference to a transsexual person;
(b)a reference to persons who share a protected characteristic is a reference to transsexual persons.

The Act does allow for women only spaces and services, but is making us fight for them on a case by case basis.

Hi @Happyland88

There are so many women like you asking this same question. Here is a recent thread with some excellent links you can read up on in your own time: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3145470-Break-it-down-for-me?

Welcome to the discussion, pull up a chair and a

Yes it is true.

This is a good fact sheet which helps explain it

sages.org.uk/publications/sages-factsheet.html

As an example, the Act allows for women only shortlists in politics. The Labour Party have ignored this and allows men who do not have a gender recognition certificate to stand as women, on all women shortlists.
Several trans people are on the Jo Cox program, which was intended to get more women involved in politics. I think they should stand as LGBT candidates.

Jennifer James is challenging this decision, as legally only people who have a gender recognition certificate should be permitted to stand as women.

Many prominent Labour party members support men who do not have a gender recognition certificate standing as women's officers, and the debate often turns nasty.
Politicians telling women 'you've lost'.
twitter.com/cllrtrisosborne/status/935639394018578433

Wow, this doesn’t seem right. I have two daughters and feel it’s my job to look into this more.

I feel a little confused by the whole transgender debate. If someone feels that they are trapped in the wrong body, I fully support them undergoing changes and recognising as the other gender. However, I have concerns that there could often be psychological issues or body dysmorphia causing these feelings as, afterall, how could someone born into a male body possibly know what it’s like to feel like a female? They’ve never been one. I am all for people doing what makes them happy but the issue of people being so easily able to access female only spaces seems unreasonable to say the least.

Happy prepare to suspend belief.

It's bizarre, and frightening but mostly bizarre.

The law is withdrawing consent from women. We cannot assert our right to consent to men in sex segregated places, the law has placed discrimination against men over women's consent.

I am wondering if a judicial review is in order here.

Topshop, Primark and M&S (and other stores) allow man into their changing rooms assuming the man self-identifies as a woman, but could just be any old perv. They won't check.

UpstartCrow - The Tories have re written The Equality Act, so that a man can say he intends to change sex, will receive full protection form his first GP appointment, then he does not need to do anything further to gain full protection as a woman.

This is not quite accurate. The tories have not rewritten the EA, it has exactly the same wording it did when it was enacted in 2010 (around gender reassignment at least).

A man is protected from discrimination on the grounds of gender reassignment from the moment he declares his intent to transition. That doesn't (legally) gain him full protection as a woman though. He'd need a gender recognition certificate for that (and even then there are, as you say, exceptions that can be used for single sex spaces, occupations and services).

The tories proposed some changes to the EA last year but these have not been enacted, or even debated in parliament yet:

1. to replace 'gender reassignment' with 'gender identity' and remove references to 'transsexual'

2. to remove the sex based exceptions for anyone who has a GRC.

Hi Happy,
Well, according to one poster here who allocates shared student accommodation, they have to go on the student's declared gender, with very little recourse for a female student who doesn't want to share a bedroom with a 'self-identified female-gendered' male student.

It's possible of course that that is a hypothetical example, this being the internet, but it's not clear that there is anything in place to prevent it.

Certainly some formerly all-female colleges now proudly state that they will take male students who self-identify as female.

Hampstead Heath ponds changed the women only pond to include "anyone who identifies as a woman" but obviously kept the men only pond men only.
So being male grants you access to all three ponds - the men's only, unisex and ladies pond, but being female grants you access to just two ponds, neither of which are women only.

These examples are businesses and organisations simply applying policy of their choosing, there's no law as such that companies have to have separate mens/women's areas except some situations such as male / female loos at work.

I understand it's illegal to make a male or female employee share bathroom facilities with a member of the opposite sex. But this law doesn't apply to customers eg if there are unisex loos.

is there a law in place already which means men can access women only areas, purely by saying they’re a women? Without having been through any transition at all?

While there has not yet been any change to the equality act, or to the gender recognition act, what there is is a lot of 'guidance' disseminated by trans orgs which is being used by many organisations to inform their policies.

The guidance doesn't even mention the sex based exceptions that could be applied and frames any requirement for evidence of transition as transphobic harrassment. So in practice, self-ID is already here and, as Mouthandtrousers says, we could do with some judicial review over the ways the guidance and policies are interpreting the law.

@Happyland88 Wow, this doesn’t seem right. I have two daughters and feel it’s my job to look into this more.

Along with @DodoPatrol's comment about the shared student accommodation, I have seen a post on here about a mum with daughters in the Girl Guides who will now not be told whether their girls will be sharing rooms with teenage intact males on GG trips.

Oh, and have you heard that being a lesbian is now not ok either? If your daughters come to discover they fancy other girls, then they will be encouraged to become a "straight transman" instead, and quite likely also encouraged to take sterility-inducing puberty blocking drugs with will also have the added benefit of leaving them with prepubescent genitalia for life. But of course they will be fully expected to have sex with transwomen, because they have lady penises, and not wanting that is transphobic....And further on down the rabbit hole we fall...

I know HH pond had a meeting recently to discuss the proposal? Did anything come from that? I think in the summer a mumsnet meet of trans identifying women should go for a swim in the men's pond. We self identify as men so should be allowed in there.

Yes Garden this is cross-party. We need to raise awareness of the issues so that it gets properly debated. Make sure other people who may be affected are aware, fill in your concerns in the Scottish consultation, contact your MP, go to a woman's place event if you can. Keep watching here, get on twitter if you can. We have the vote, this is a democracy, this stuff should be being debated properly at the moment and it's not. That needs to change.

Doing all of the above aims to make all parties crack first on this one. And ideally all to change their policy.

From Private Eye...

Talking of lady penises, not to start doom mongering or anything, but that bit in the Scottish consultation on gender self-identification about removing the right to divorce someone on grounds of transgender had me worried. I keep wondering how they will react if/ when there's a conflict with the relatively recent law against rape in marriage.