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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Mary Beard and "white feminism"

35 replies

CeciledeVolanges · 18/02/2018 16:23

I've been following the Mary Beard row on Twitter and I keep seeing "white feminism" being used as an insult and "said from a position of privilege" used to invalidate what she said.

What are your thoughts on this, please? Why are "white feminists" seemingly (not necessarily, happy to be proved wrong) getting it in the neck along with Oxfam etc and not the white men who have actually done what they have done here?

By the way, I just want to make it utterly clear that what was done by those who took advantage of their position to abuse vulnerably women was utterly despicable. Does this have to undermine the whole position of aid, Oxfam and anyone who argues for the continuation of those institutions? By analogy, could you say that vicious and inhuman war crimes were committed by some of the Allied forces in WWII. Should we just have stopped fighting when they were discovered? Sorry re Godwin's Law etc. Please help me understand this.

OP posts:
OrderOnline · 18/02/2018 16:38

I don't know what went on other than MB thought the half apology was ok. She is entitled to her opinion.

White, straight, able bodied, middle-class women like their male counterparts don't realise they are privileged.

I have some understanding of various strands of feminism, I don't buy into top trumps, not looking deeply and I am not keen on gender.

I have had to highlight and educate able bodied women on here, I don't blame them for not knowing, they were respectful to me and took what I said on board, end of. We now work together and make things better for all women and girls.

NotTerfNorCis · 18/02/2018 16:57

Identity politics are harmful and need to stop. They're being exploited to weaken the feminist movement. Look no further than Madigan's comment: ' don't be afraid to use identity politics '.

TallulahWaitingInTheRain · 18/02/2018 17:07

While I think her colleague calling her out for implicit racism was fair enough, the pile-on is interesting isn't it.

Anyone would think it was Beard who had been sexually abusing people in disaster zones. We don't call out men for being abusive, we call out women who are completely unconnected to the abuse except via one ill-judged tweet.

Which law of misogyny is that again?

thecatfromjapan · 18/02/2018 17:11

MB's tweet wasn't great, to be honest, and if you (for instance) had taken it as your starting point to think through all the implications of the Oxfam situation (which is, I think, the tip of a nasty iceberg re. Aid/NGOs around the world and abusive men in various organisations) it would actually have hindered your ability to think through the situation. It didn't, really, offer any real tools for thinking. In fact, I'd go as far as to say it was actually something that would close the door on thinking.

That said, MB is a feminist Classics scholar, who has achieved some prominence because she shows common-sense on a variety of issues, some of which are beyond the field in which she is an expert. That's great, she's clearly an ally. However, quite why you might think, even expect, her to be an expert in a field not related to her own area of expertise, I don;t know. She's not someone I'd go to for insight and 'tools for thinking about' this particular issue.

In some ways, I think the twitter-storm is a bit inappropriate - as though she is an expert here. She really isn't. She's almost certainly going to have an opinion that hasn't acquired depth, knowledge and nuance. Some of the outrage seems to be surprise (why? Hmm) and some of it seems to be some sense of betrayal (as though she has been over-invested with a prophet-like status by people who have seen her as a 'go-to' figure when they need a short-cut for thinking about difficult issues).

Some of the outrage is from women who have spent years thinking about these issues, who have probably written papers, books, PhDs, articles - and been met with silence and (bored) indifference. I can imagine the incredible frustration - the 'innocence' comes from a position of not having to become informed. It is a form of privilege. And, of course, it kind of mirrors the silencing of those who have worked damn hard to get the information out there, into the mainstream.

That said, I'm really fed up with the spectacle of women carrying the can for this.

There's so much to be said about this whole story. Catherine Bennet has written a very good article about what it tells us about attitudes to sex, the sex trade and progressive politics.

I think there is a lot to be explored about how abusive men inevitably gravitate to areas where the ability to abuse is made easier for them - and how this becomes a culture that tolerates abuse - and what that means for all the women involved.

For myself, I'm actually trying to process what I think about 'open secrets'. I remember a friend writing an article that touched on this years ago (about twenty years ago) - it looked at the link between 'aid' and AIDS, and NGOS, Aid organisations, etc, and the (inherently) abusive sexual relations that sprang up when those organisations moved into areas.

It was considered 'old news' then. No-one seemed to care. I'm really wondering how 'open secrets' serve to silence subaltern and feminist discourses that seek to argue back against 'common knowledge' and abusive, though widespread, practices.

I think MB was probably at the beginning of her thinking on this issue. Twitter might not have been the best place to start. I think the response has been disproportionate. I hope that people are going to use it productively, and look up some new (to them, maybe) voices. I suspect it won't happen, though.

There, surely, should be some way of accepting that individual feminist women aren't going to be 'right' about everything and interacting in a way that isn;t completely destructive, and to recognise that, sometimes, we occupy positions of privilege and that may obscure our knowledge, but doesn't necessarily make us wholeheartedly 'bad'. Political purity is a very damaging notion.

My thinking on this is still developing, and is fluid. I'm posting, in part, to learn and listen.

Social media is also very new. Perhaps we're still developing our thinking about the ethics of communication in social media.

thecatfromjapan · 18/02/2018 17:15

I also wonder about the women who are still trying to do their best in these organisations. I wonder if we need to think about the role of men in these organisations far, far more than the role of women.

OvaHere · 18/02/2018 17:29

Great post thecatfromjapan a lot to think about.

BlindYeo · 18/02/2018 18:00

I think the phrase is either being used to divide and conquer or has the net result of dividing women so they can't conquer.

Agree with NotTerf that identity politics is harmful. Dividing us up into little squabbling segments.

thecatfromjapan · 18/02/2018 18:05

Thanks, Ova. I'm hoping more people will post because, as I said, I'm hoping to develop, deepen and extend my own thinking on this, so want to hear what other people have to say.

Just one thing, and I'm not sure this is the thread for it, but it;s bothering me ...

The other aspect of the safeguarding concerns raised was the issue of abuse - and non-DBS checking - in UK stores.

That, to me, is also very serious. Volunteers in these stores are often children. They'll be working for Duke of Edinburgh awards and - very often - be children from non-mainstream schools, gaining work experience. They are vulnerable. It just all points to an abuser's heaven.

I've also just read a journalist on Twitter (Samira Salwani) pointing out that DBS-checking tends to go out of the window when people are recruited for overseas work - which is extraordinary but unfortunately just what you can see happening when given the whole dynamic of thinking about workers in 'crisis' geographies (and there's a whole load of thinking that needs to be done about that designation).

Absolutely grim.

QuentinSummers · 18/02/2018 18:08

I read her blog earlier then Twitter. Stuff was getting quoted completely out of context and being twisted purely to attack her. E.g. her blog said Most aid workers deal with that, I suspect , by drink and cigarettes. But that kind of societal, infrastructural breakdown provides a space for much worse. That is not to condone the awful things that happened but to contextualise them. Someone on twitter said that showed she thought child abuse was equivalent to drinking Hmm. I agreed with her blog and when I had read it, i agreed with her tweet. She has nothing to apologise for imo.

www.the-tls.co.uk/oxfam/amp/

"White feminism" in this case appears to be misogyny. Easier to have a go at her than the men using the prostitutes.

BahHumbygge · 18/02/2018 18:16

Yes BlindYeo. The phrase horizontal hostility comes to mind. Get the factions squabbling among themselves, rather than directing activism up the power axis to take down the oppressors at the top. Their grip on power is maintained and consolidated.

TrollTheRespawnJeremy · 18/02/2018 18:18

White M/C feminist shouldn't be an insult.

We are all constantly learning, show me a woman who can speak for the entire female experience and I would be surprised.

thecatfromjapan · 18/02/2018 18:25

I agree about the infrastrutural breakdown BUT I would say that it draws perilously close to avoiding problematising male behaviour. It doesn't offer enough in the way of tools to analyse male behaviour in this situation.

Why is it that men respond in this way? - Remember, it was a woman who whistle-blew - that was a woman's response.

Could it be that certain types of men are drawn to these locations because it is easier to abuse? What can be done to safeguard against that?

What causes the 'infrastuctural breakdown'? Are NGOs the best response to that? Are there other, better, responses?

And, going back to the idea of men in situations of 'infrastructural breakdown', I would say we don't have to look far for similar situations. I'd suggest that care homes, and the societal position of working class girls in Rotherham are also examples of 'infrastructural breakdown'. I'd suggest that one thing we need to learn is how to protect the vulnerable, from men, in these situations.

And how to avoid creating organisations in which men's abusive responses are normalised and rendered invisible.

You see, I think that was what was so troubling - for me - about MB's thinking on this. It seemed to reproduce some of the thinking that enabled mens' abusive responses to be normalised, excused and rendered invisible. After all, this story arises from a woman calling this behviour out, naming it as unacceptable and abusive - and meeting with an organisational response that excused it.

So, in a way, MB repeated the organisation's response to the woman who whistleblew.

And, of course, MB reproduced a whole discourse about geographical locations - which are economically oppressed by the developed world and 'othered' - which has been extensively porblematised and interrogated, by experts, many of whom are women. That work has tended to receive little coverage - and, in fact, becoming a specialist in that area can offer hamper your job prospects! Becoming an outspoken feminist, who delivers bad news about international charity organisations, aid and NGOs is not a position that positions you as the 'fluffy' face of feminism. I'd guess that experts in this particular niche field tend to earn less, are employed more insecurely, and enjoy less coverage than women bringing 'good news'.

I don't intend any of that as an attack on MB. I really do think the focus in this needs to be on analysing how men have been enabled to do this. How they, frankly, have created the conditions to enable this. And part of that is the politics of race and the inequalities of global wealth distribution - something that I, as a white, first-world woman, gain privilege from.

I think it's actually impossible to talk about this without some analysis of the inequalities of privilege conferred by race and global geography. That is part of the dynamics of how this happened/continues to happen. And it will be a necessary part of any solution.

thecatfromjapan · 18/02/2018 18:26

I really agree with that, Troll.

wrappedupinmyselflikeaspool · 18/02/2018 18:29

Thecatfromjapan excellent post. Couldn’t agree more.

QuentinSummers · 18/02/2018 18:33

See I read the "provides a space" comment as recognising that those situations inherently provide opportunities that can be exploited by predators. And that under stress "normal" people turn a blind eye, as she described at the end about resistance fighters.

I do agree with everything you said cat btw. MB just approached it with a historical rather than feminist analysis which isn't surprising. I wish people would cut her a bit of slack.

thecatfromjapan · 18/02/2018 18:41

Yes. I do think there has to be a way that we can cut women - who are prepared to do some thinking, do some talking, about difficult issues - some slack.

There has to be a way - to acknowledge that sometimes our thinking is developing, imperfect, perhaps inhibited by our own experience (and that includes experience of privilege and occupancy of position of privilege), a way of acknowledging that there is more to be thought/said and directing people to sources of that thinking - that isn't destructive of women - particularly well-intentioned women.

It is a truth that being an outspoken woman, particularly on feminist issues, is actually quite a scary thing to be. It's different to being an outspoken man, it;s different to being a mouthpiece for the status quo. Something about that difficulty needs to acknowledged when we think about our responses, I think.

And in a way that doesn't mean shutting down/silencing criticism/critique.

I don't know. It's tough.

Elendon · 18/02/2018 19:02

But why is it tough?

I have studied the classics and I'm white and female and I don't always agree with what Mary Beard says. The same goes for other white female historians. I care little if they are feminists or not.

This from Troll sums it up for me

We are all constantly learning, show me a woman who can speak for the entire female experience and I would be surprised.

TrollTheRespawnJeremy · 18/02/2018 19:26

I think it's tough because in an ideal world we'd all be able to have constructive arguments with well thought out, researched and balanced arguments.

However, in this case - whether her opinion is construed as right or wrong is irrelevant- MB is just being shouted down by the hordes. I truly believe that even if she had said something that I could agree with she would still have gotten shouted at.

It's all very well us talking about how we would want women in the public eye to be treated, or how we can successfully say the complex things that are difficult to narrow down into a narrative... the reality is that a lot of people just don't fucking care what we have to say and will get pillaged for it regardless.

TallulahWaitingInTheRain · 18/02/2018 19:28

When working with the vulnerable in the UK we have a raft of measures for their protection, including professional practice guidelines with associated regulatory bodies to investigate possible abuses of power, DBS checks, and legally mandated safeguarding procedures.

It's an interesting point that we don't accord the vulnerable overseas the same level of protection.

OutyMcOutface · 18/02/2018 19:35

Well I certainly don't think that the allied forces thing is a fair comparison-they we're fighting a war notcreating a cycle of dependency by interfering with the economy of developing nations. If they genuinely wanted to eradicate poverty and they would be addressing the causes of poor economic development such as poor politics, lack of education both in developing nations and developed nations, lack of rule of law, lack of international frameworks for supporting development and facilitating international trade and investment etc. Instead oxfam and similar charities are building pointless wells that fall into disrepair or funding small business that can never thrive because the legal systems in those countries are inadequate as an excuse to take money from the public to pay for huge overheads. In that context yes, they should just stop. Not only are they not doing any real good, they are doing harm.

bambambini · 18/02/2018 20:06

I thought she was more making the point that taking folk far away from their home/culture to often extreme and harsh places and circumstances can shake up your normal moral norms - a bit like soldiers away from home dealing with challenging conditions , hostile territory etc - and folk sitting at home on their couches in the UK watching Ant and Dec whilst scoffing their takeaway and 6 cans of lager - aren’t in the best place to smugly judge others and feel superior.

I think she was just acknowledging a reality - doesn’t mean it shouldn’t be challenged and criticised.

Anlaf · 18/02/2018 20:07

Too flu-ridden to make much sense but liked this piece on another twitter pile-on on this week, on (female) nytimes journalist Bari Weiss:

In our identitarian age, the bar for offense has been lowered considerably, which makes democratic debate more difficult—citizens are more likely to withhold their true opinions if they fear being labeled as bigoted or insensitive.

moral posturing doesn’t usually change anyone’s mind, because people intuitively interpret it “as a form of jockeying for in-group status.” But it doesn’t need to change minds, nor is it necessarily supposed to. Its point is to transform politics into a question of purity. It’s not enough to have the right opinion or intent: The precise words used to convey the right opinion become just as important, as Weiss herself quickly found out.

www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2018/02/bari-weiss-immigrants/553550/

thecatfromjapan · 18/02/2018 20:12

It's a shame because social media has the opportunity to be a great place to learn.

I worry about the 'silencing' effect it has. If you're not naturally thick-skinned (and so many of us aren't) and genuinely care about the opinions and views you're seeking to learn more about and not confident (and I think I have probably now included an awful lot of us in this), it's terrifying.

TallulahWaitingInTheRain · 18/02/2018 20:18

taking folk far away from their home/culture to often extreme and harsh places and circumstances can shake up your normal moral norms

Yes, but this is a very 'permission-giving' belief, especially in a context where abusive men may be deliberately exploiting the extreme circumstances and their impact on survivors in order to abuse.

Having said that, I don't see what any of this has to do with Beard, who I think was wrong but only said what many were probably thinking. I also don't understand why anyone thinks it's appropriate to direct anger triggered by sexually abusive men at her.

tarheelbaby · 18/02/2018 20:36

Others have posted much better comments considering the more important issues of feminism and aid work and abuse.

But, I seem to remember, the trolls love to have a go at Mary Beard because she is brave enough to live on her terms. She is an educated person with a public persona and, as such, feels confident to address current topics. She has been subject to a wide range of vile abuse by cowardly commentators for years. So some of the responses may be coming solely from that angle.

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