Another thought - health clubs and businesses generally

[CertainHalfDesertedStreets]

I was in a branch of a national chain of health clubs last week. Their showers are made of slightly frosted glass - so you can clearly see the outline of the person in the stall next to you but no real detail.

There are probably 20 stalls in the showers there. They have maybe 30 - 60 branches nationwide and there are how many of those chains? Virgin, banatynes, David Lloyd etc etc. Some with fewer branches but some with more.

Now, if I am a member, I am not going to pay £70 a month and not use the lovely hot showers and the complementary towel. That's the shit I'm paying for.

And it's really clear to me that I am also not going to use that facility if there is a bloke in there. However much make up he is wearing. They are clearly designed to be sex segregated places. There is a sign saying they can be used by boys up to the age of seven so others clearly feel exactly the same as I do.

So those businesses would have a choice following self id - lose shedloads of clients or refit their facilities. At what cost? 50k per venue?

Has anyone explained that to these businesses? And what other businesses would be similarly affected? Business is VERY good at lobbying government and politicians.

What do we think? Might there be traction in that?

Hopefully
I don't think they are aware. They need to know their safeguarding obligations to the female club members

I think that's true. But I was more thinking about the sheer cost. Businesses always have an eye on the bottom line. I think 50k is a very conservative estimate of what it might cost a health club to provide facilities after self id in a way that won't see women leaving in droves. Probably more like 75+ For big chains like Nuffield or Banatynes this legislation might cost them a couple of million. Who's helping them to pay that?

And women will leave - as soon as they see one autogynephile in the changing room or have to shower next to an intact male in the showers I have described. You don't pay that sort of money to feel uncomfortable and a bit humiliated.

Let alone when the first one is caught wanking. It's a PR disaster...

I have also been think about this, I've used hotel leisure clubs for years for swimming as the pools are less busy and as you say, nice showers and towels. The changing rooms are open, no cubicles.

At the weekends they are full of brides having spa days with their pals etc and mother and daughter days our.

How are hotels supposed to deal with this? How do hotel guests deal with reception telling them they are bigots?

I wrote to my labour MP asking how we are expected to deal with this as I will not use a changing room if men can wander in there whenever they feel like it, which is Jeremy Corbyn's plan.

That is a very good point. Spa days and hen parties etc. Worth thousands to businesses. And all you would need is one man in there and hey presto - day ruined, can we have our money back?

I think businesses catering to women in sec segregated spaces need to wake up to this. Is there an association for health clubs and spas or something? Or does anyone know people who run this sort of business?

Swimming UK must have sent the re education notice written by Stonewall in December. I'm going to ask the manager next time I go.

Perhaps there is a tourism minister we can ask?

Ooh yes would you ask? And yes. I'll go find out who is sport tourism person. I should know...

Current role holder: Tracey Crouch MP. Tracey Crouch was appointed Parliamentary Under Secretary of State for Sport, Tourism and Heritage on 12 May 2015. She was elected as the Conservative MP for Chatham and Aylesford in 2010.

www.michaelellis.co.uk/about-michael

This guy is tourism. I shall email him tomorrow about the SwimmingUK guidance telling me men can get changed in women's changing rooms now, see if he calls me a bigot for expecting some privacy and safety.

This is an area where I think consumer pressure could make a huge difference. There are a lot more women who want to be able to shower in a penis-free space than there are either trans women who want into those spaces or fervent TRAs who'll support them in doing so. A targeted consumer boycott could make the point of where the money that companies that serve women actually comes from and what would happen if it was withdrawn.

The case of Planet Fitness in the US isn't encouraging though, in that public response to that was muted even though the trans identifying person in that case was blatantly a fetishist.

Are private health clubs bound by the guidelines that SwimEngland have published, does anyone know? My feeling is not, but I don't actually know. And yes, I agree, hit businesses where it counts, the bottom line!

The scary thing is tho, if the GRA becomes law, they won't have a choice. And neither will we...

Exactly why action needs to happen now, because if that act is reformed it will be too late, or at least much harder in terms of having to refer to the exemptions in the Equalities Act.

I agree that this is an area where consumer pressure could make a real difference. It's not quite like changing rooms, where there's the option to try clothes on at home and return them later even with M&S's less generous return policy as showering after swimming needs to happen right there and then

Maybe between us we could draft a template enquiry letter to send to branches of naice health clubs?

Michael Ellis is my MP but I don't really understand how this is linked to tourism?

Are tourism and sport under the same ministry?

I use a swimming pool at a hotel, I am member of their leisure club, and men can now come into the changing rooms according to Stonewall and Swimming UK and Jeremy Corbyn. Hotels are where tourists also stay. My hotel is at a major cruise terminal, there are many cruise guests staying pre and post cruise, I bet they expect to have a dude in the shower....

If the club is in a hotel then Trip Advisor etc reviews would be another place to target, since hotels really don't like bad reviews that are visible to potential customers.

I think there is a policy question to ask first, before posting a review.

Women could start asking for the policy in whatever facilities they use, and then include the response they were given in any reviews.

Also even if we weren't facing a threat to sex segregation, why are shower stall doors in public spaces being made transparent anyway? That's just bad design (is fine for the shower in someone's home).

This is the current ministerial team at DCMS, which covers a lot of the areas particularly affected by self-ID actually, including sport, tourism, digital and civil society

Thank you olenna - so Margot James is one of those and she's GC isn't she? I'm not on twitter but I could email her. Anyone on twitter?

And yes I agree Angry but it strikes me that you get more than a bit of that kind of 'tease' in women only spaces. A bit of 'we're all naked but it's okay 'cos we're all women' in the design. Which is another reason why it's deluded to think we can just allow people with dicks in and it'll all be fine and dandy.

I reckon hairdressers should get involved - they'll lose thousands if we all start opting for a men's haircut at £7 instead of a women's cut at £35!

Just thinking about the changing
facilities at my local gym... They have
one of those signs up to warn visitors that both male and female staff members clean/service the facilities at times. Those signs are starting to seem ironic.

As are the ones stating that children aged over 8 should use the changing room for their own gender! (Cause they mean sex, not gender)