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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminism: chat

Original poster

Warning, possibly upsetting, child sex abuse.

33 replies

treaclesoda · 15/02/2018 08:18

I have been following the news on Barry Burnell and obviously I am pleased, as any normal person is, that he has been convicted of these awful crimes.

But it got me thinking about something. His victims were male. And I have not yet seen an article or a discussion on the internet accusing them of lying, or falsely accusing him, or jumping on the bandwagon.

Whereas when the news about eg Jimmy Saville came to light and loads of women came forward to say he had abused them when they were young teenagers, I saw an awful lot of comments online etc about how a lot of them were fantasists who wanted attention.

Is abusing boys more shocking than abusing girls? More horrific?

OP posts:
SuperLoudPoppingAction · 15/02/2018 08:24

It's always dreadful when a child is abused. Children of one sex don't come into the world more resilient than the other or more worthy of abuse.

I think some people act as though that were the case though.
Even when a girl is very young people look for the same kinds of get out clauses and ways to victim blame that they would for an adult woman.

Basically anything that puts them in the 'seductive' box. Was a 4 year old wearing a short dress? That kind of thing. Did an 8 year old talk to him alone?
Plus project that need to victim blame onto the parents of the victim.
She was a single mum who should have vetted her boyfriend better.
When it is clear that a groomer puts on an incredibly good act.

Anything other than laying blame at the feet of the perpetrator.

WS12 · 15/02/2018 08:29

Yes I totally see what you mean - it's very hard to explain, but there is something intrinsically ingrained in society to value the world and testimony of women less than that of men.

CapnHaddock · 15/02/2018 08:29

Because girls and women are liars and slags and asking for it and temptresses and gold diggers and because boys and men aren't.

Misogyny and the patriarchy basically

StealthPolarBear · 15/02/2018 08:32

I hadn't spotted that. Really good point.

QueenLaBeefah · 15/02/2018 08:37

I hadn't spotted this either but you are right.

TallulahWaitingInTheRain · 15/02/2018 08:39

Yes. I don't know that people think abuse of boys is worse but they definitely think they are more reliable witnesses.

Dismissing abused girls and women as hysterical fantasists has been going on since at least Freud.

TheCopyist · 15/02/2018 08:45

Is abusing boys more shocking than abusing girls? More horrific?

Not once they get to adolescence and they're abused by women. Then the prevailing narrative is that they're 'lucky buggers'

FellOutOfBed2wice · 15/02/2018 08:46

I totally hear this. I was in an abudive sexual relationship with my male teacher from the age of 14 (and even more shockingly he’s still teaching due to it being hard to prove and historic but that’s another thread altogether!) but even people who should have been on my side have made ill informed and misogynistic, victim blaming comments like “Well you did dress very provocatively”/“You were very developed for your age”/“You did have a school girl crush on him!”

Fairly sure if my husband had been through the same experience no one who say the same kinds of things.

deydododatdodontdeydo · 15/02/2018 08:51

I thought people generally did believe the Saville girls because they were under-aged, so no argument really.
I also think there is a same-sex aspect to it. People will more likely believe that a boy (male) didn't want it with a man (male) because that's "not normal".

QueenLaBeefah · 15/02/2018 08:53

I've heard a lot of people say that a lot of Savilles victims were making it up for the compensation.

Original poster
treaclesoda · 15/02/2018 09:01

I've heard a lot of people say that a lot of Savilles victims were making it up for the compensation

I've seen the same. Mostly Twitter and the comments section on newspaper reports, or the Facebook pages of newspapers.

OP posts:
AngryAttackKittens · 15/02/2018 09:17

Boys grow up to be men, therefore society sees them as people in training and what happens to them matters. Girls grow up to be women, therefore society sees them as sex and housework providing bots and doesn't care that much if one of their intended functions was demanded of them earlier than is technically legal.

Not exactly being a shiny little ball of positivity today, I know, but I'm not in the let's put a nice but dishonest spin on things frame of mind.

Lottapianos · 15/02/2018 09:23

You're right OP and it's a good point. I do think that girl victims of sex abuse are often held accountable in a way that boy victims are not, and of course the same holds for adult victims. That said, I remember reading James Rhodes book 'Instrumental' where he talks about being sexually abused by a teacher. It's a brilliant book but totally horrifying. He recalls telling a family friend about the abuse as an adult and get response was 'well James you were the most beautiful child' Angry

So it's not unheard of for boys to be blamed for their own abuse, but I haven't seen any mention of it in the Barry Benell case

LangCleg · 15/02/2018 09:23

Yes. What I've been noticing is that the notion of class has come up quite a bit with the street grooming scandals - these girls weren't listened to soon enough because they were working class or underclass. Er... this scandal affects working class boys. No such rush to discredit them.

It's definitely the patriarchy.

shedalight · 15/02/2018 13:13

While agreeing with lots of comments about the media, it is worth noting that Burnell's defence did try to discredit many of the victims alleging that they were just after compensation. Incredible given his previous lengthy jail terms for abuse. And I hear that the jury has just disagreed with that and found him guilty of all charges.

TheCopyist · 15/02/2018 17:50

I've been listening to the reports about this throughout the day. What's clear is as with female victims these male victims were unable to speak out and when they did many weren't believed. Like Saville there are also reports that this was an 'open secret' amongst parts of the football community in the North West.

I haven't heard anything that suggests that these male victims of sexual abuse have been treated significantly 'better' than female victims.

QuentinSummers · 15/02/2018 17:54

Yes I agree OP and I started a thread about just that around the time this all came out.

It seems to have been taken a lot more seriously. This is what we need for all victims of sexual assault, not just the ones society deems suitable (due to sex, colour or class)

BastardGoDarkly · 15/02/2018 17:54

Bloody hell, that never occurred to me, but you're so right (fuck I hope fil brings this up at dinner on sunday, so I can throw it at him I'm still sore about his Saville victims comments)

QuentinSummers · 15/02/2018 18:02

I think looking at the Larry Nassar case in the states is a good comparison. Not as widely reported and I've seen some blaming of the parents for not questioning what was going on Hmm

UpstartCrow · 15/02/2018 18:03

I haven't seen anyone blame the victims for not speaking out sooner, or blaming them for the subsequent victims.

DaisyDrip · 15/02/2018 18:04

How can we expect female survivors to be treated equally to males when we have a woman MP saying "victims should shut their mouths"? When you have a woman in the public eye telling woman to shut up it simply empowers men to do it again and again and again knowing that woman are so little valued.

article

TheCopyist · 15/02/2018 18:09

It seems to have been taken a lot more seriously.

Really? Dispatches made a programme in 1997 suggesting that young players were being exposed to predatory peadophiles. The FA refused to be interviewed. 19 years later they set up a helpline with the NSPCC. I don't think that's taking it seriously

StaplesCorner · 15/02/2018 18:09

I hadn't noticed that - talk about hiding in plain sight. Makes it all even more tragic.

Missingstreetlife · 15/02/2018 18:14

Also right fed up with the use of 'child prostitute' e.g. In oxfam case. No such thing exists, they are abused children, below age of consent

CarefullyDrawnMap · 15/02/2018 18:23

I think as well when a victim demonstrates very disturbed behaviour as a result of the abuse, for example drinking too much, living in a disorganised way, people are far more judgemental when it's a girl than a boy.