Gender - biological or social? (Ladybrain)

[Littleladywilly]

Do you believe gender is biological or a social construct? Personally I believe the latter but any credible links backing up either side of the argument are hugely appreciated. Apparently male baby monkeys gravitate towards “masculine” toys... anyone heard this?

Also, interesting how the concept that men are ‘systematisers’ who like things and numbers, and women are ‘empathisers’ who like feelings and people, plays out in real life.

We don’t culturally think men are better suited to baking cakes or sorting baby clothes or organising the kitchen or keeping track of routine household management like cleaning and laundry than women, even though these are all tasks about planning and numbers and sorting objects.

Just like we don’t think women are better suited for senior management and stakeholder engagement work than men, even though these are about people and feelings.

Take sales, for example. If we sort brains that way, then men would make better supermarket checkout operators (it’s about objects and processes) and women would make better highly-paid corporate advertising (because that’s about knowing what people want).

And yet bizarrely, nope! It’s the other way round. Whatever COULD be going on, I can’t imagine...

I know plenty of rational men thanks. They really aren’t my enemy, by and large.

Allthecoolkids I was joking!

I was referring to the long held historical viewpoint that women are more emotional than men due to their hormones and are therefore more irrational. Whilst men's hormone testosterone which is generally thought to lead to anger, yet this is in no way considered to impact their capability to think rationally.

I in no way think men are my enemy. Exaggerated gender stereotypes which restrict the lives and potential of both men and women are my enemy.

Phew! I hope that's cleared that up!

53rd way, I absolutely agree. There are many hooks into a subject, a skill, a hobby yet we tend to think that a person likes something because of the stereotype relating to their sex.

I like languages. People assume it's because women are "verbal". For me it's the grammar. I love the logic.

To give another example I'll always remember from when my son was young. We were both examining a knitting machine at a craft fair and the lady came up and said "ooh look he's a real boy, looking at the mechanics of how it works".

I call it the remote control theory. A boy picks up a remote control and he wants to be a rocket scientist. A girl picks up a remote control and she just wants to watch TV

Many countries (like Denmark) appear to be far more wiling to accept and indeed celebrate the different ways that boys and girls (in general) learn.
I don't subscribe to the "blank slate" hypothesis - the fact that we have XX chromosomes in every cell and men have XY is a "biological" difference.

Think might be in the minority here - I do believe that male/female brains are wired differently. I believe that men are wired to destroy life, women are wired to create it. And yes exceptions & a bit cowardly to make sweeping generalisations on an anonymous message board.

But genuinely my viewpoint

(Eeeek - sits back and waits for responses)

Actually wish I hadn't said bit about cowardly to make sweeping generalisations... this is what MN can be for & I bloody love it

There are more differences between individuals than between the sexes.

You can’t seperate nature and nurture - the two are so inextricably entwined that the question is redundant.

However we are shaped by our biology - hormones etc and by society’s expectations right from birth. And this in turn affects the way our brains develop.

All this gender stuff is a load of bollovks. It’s just about conforming to stereotypes.

Everyone learns in the same way.

Brains are not ‘wired’

'' I'm no science bod so apologies if I'm wrong but it appears that most observe differences are due to the influence various hormones have on the brain. Similar to the recent discovery of what causes 'baby brain'. ''

Cordelia Fine's latest book Testosterone Rex takes a good look at this and debunks most of what we believe about hormones.

In general I think it's not so much about the differences but what you do with those differences.

Do you encourage kids to broaden their horizons and give them access to a whole range of activities etc or do you say "well the probability is that you like X so let's push you into that and never encourage anything else"

Tinycitrus
*Everyone learns in the same way

What way is that?

It’s a cognitive process

no such thing as learning styles

believe that men are wired to destroy life, women are wired to create it

Except when they're not. Infanticide by mothers exists in quite a few species. If the baby is not worth keeping or is too weak to realistically then mothers often make an executive decision to abandon their young. This kind of reproductive control according to circumstance continues today with abortion and pro-choice.

Even altruism is in its end selfish because it's about the propagation of your own genes. Evolutionary speaking mothers have been more sure of their genes than men so can invest more.

As for the men = destruction thing I'd say male culture is a wide spectrum with aggressive competition spilling over to violence only at its extreme ends. At least that's what I optimistically think.

Genes, personality, circumstance, culture all create such a variety, it's hard to pick them apart.

Something that has always fascinated me is that you have stereotypically female hobbies like cooking and dressmaking but if you look at those things as professionals, most of the most successful chefs and tailors and clothes designers, say, are men.

So it's like we've been socialised to be allowed certain things but as soon as there's any money to be made or success to be had, men still elbow us very firmly out the way and take pole position.

Great point geronimo

Yes Geronimo see also BBQ Putting things in an indoor oven is feminine, putting things on an outdoor oven is masculine.

I was also thinking about this whilst in Boots the other day. So many female hair care ranges by male stylists because of course when there is money to be made at the top of the game it's mostly men.

I think male aggression can be chanelled to destruction or production. I think the aggression can cause determinism to reach the top and achieve if used in a productive way.

So true Geronimo.

I don't know Missymoo. The men that thrive in female dominated spheres (with the exception of cooking) are not seen as particularly tough.

I think that it's because women are more welcoming of men in their domain than men are of women in theirs. Women's spheres are traditionally lower in status and therefore women are not threatened by men coming in. In fact a man coming in elevates the status somewhat.

Plus there is the issue of childcare and how this affects longevity in your field.

I really believe that women want to be the best in their field, just as much as men do. But certain societal and biological things get in the way.

And the desire to chase money and be a leader is accepted in men whilst frowned upon in women.

Tinycitrus
It’s a cognitive process

Learning is a cognitive process?
Well, salt my greens!

Many countries (like Denmark) appear to be far more wiling to accept and indeed celebrate the different ways that boys and girls (in general) learn.

Denmark is plagued by concepts of girls liking pink and being princesses and boys liking blue and being superheroes as much as the UK - just with slightly less of an ability to step back and consider it critically, IMO. Same applies to racism.

Everyone should watch this, it should be shown in schools.

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