free manicures and a chat about transphobia for International Women's Day

[Messagefromyoshimi]

A local children's event for Internatiobal Womens Day that I thought I might take DC too - described as exploring stereotyoes with hands on creative activities - includes -

"We’re delighted that the Nail Transphobia nail salon will be in situ, tackling transphobia through nail art – it’s fabulous activism!"

Really? Offering free manicures to children as a way of challenging stereotypes about women?! AIBU to find that really fucking depressing.

I did think transgender and transsexual were just one and the same thing. It's been a rather enlightening thread for me!

So, I recently came across the term 'non-binary' meaning those that consider themselves neither male nor female and prefer to be referred to as 'they' or 'them' rather than he/she him/her. Is the non-binary gender also under an umbrella term or is non-binary on its own, so to speak?

(I know how stupid I sound, I'm embarrassed tbh! I know so little. But I want to be clued up for my kids, and to know my own rights as a female and those of others)

Non-binary are also under the umbrella yes. As are drag queens. And a lot of other people too.

Stonewalls definition of transgender covers nearly all people in some way.

Its quite sneaky, the way transgender took over and expanded, all whilst people thought transgender was just a way to say transsexual without referencing the word sex.

Gosh, isn't that umbrella diagram chilling, with the happy umbrella keeping out the nasty cis raindrops.

Also, am I not right in thinking that intersex people are always insisting that they NOT be put under the umbrella? And what about "masculine women"?? Who decides who's sufficiently masculine to have to go under the umbrella?

As far as I can tell, the only people excluded by this diagram (in the masculine man and feminine woman categories) are Barbie and Action Man (and even Barbie might not qualify because she can code and we all know that's a man thing).

Barbie has also been an aeroplane pilot, an astronaut, a doctor, and even run for President of the US. So who knows where she fits.

FarmerSee

Lots of people are wondering why trans has suddenly become such a hot topic.

It's because of proposed changes to the law that means anyone, any man or woman, can legally change their sex by filling out a form.

It's aimed at transgender people, but obviously cannot be confined to them, as there is no criteria.

Unsurprisingly, it's being resisted by women who do not want any Tom, Dick or Harry to be able to identify as a woman and access anything female.

This thread breaks down some of the issues and terminology.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3145470-Break-it-down-for-me

That umbrella depiction is not only silly, it's also self-defeating, surely?

If absolutely anyone who expresses or even just secretly holds any misgivings about their society's 'traditional' gender norms is trans, then, surely, trans people encompass some of the most privileged individuals in society?

Take my boss as an example. white male, senior C-level executive in a multinational corporation, a wife who's a SAHM and two children - and yet his expression is somewhat effeminate at times and he works from home two days a week in order to have time for the family. And this, according to that silly graphic, would technically qualify him as trans.

Surely if this were actually the case we'd also have to acknowledge that simply being trans doesn't automatically also mean 'marginalised' in any sort of way? Rich white male executives are hardly marginalised - they run the fucking show!

Therefore, if you're going to open up so wide, you can't also legitimately claim shared experience, shared suffering and call for shared action as a result.

The mind boggles!

Trans aside I really don't think nail bars are appropriate at an international women's day event.

That's not because I'm anti makeup or whatever. It's just not appropriate. Nail art makeup etc they're designed literally for the purpose of being decorative and that's what all of enforced gender bull is for women all year round. And while I'm sure they'd paint your son's nails (while telling him he must be a little girl if he likes it) the point of international women's day is that it's for women, mostly frequented by women and often a special day out for women and their female children.

It's just so fucking typical than tw think the way of showing their womanhood is through nails though.

And again, they will be bringing in 'gender neutral toys' for all the children... But we'll all pretend that a nail bar is fab because a transwoman thinks it's a great idea.

It reminds me of Mighty Girl and these other blogs who post about how being a girl is not about looks and girly toys then post videos of Jazz saying he knew he was a girl because he likes bras and dolls.

That umbrella diagram is bizarre. Surely all feminists are transgender then as we all challenge gender stereotypes?

Is there now a scale from 'woman' to 'transgender'? From that definition I reckon I'm at least half way along. But that gives me the rage - I'm a woman regardless of whether I enjoy shopping or wear make up fgs. There isnt a spectrum when it comes to my sex!

Also the idea that you can't be a "feminine" man or a "masculine" woman, AND "cis" is just bonkers.

And EUNUCHS!? Are we really putting people who've had their genitals forcibly removed as children under the umbrella? TRAs are always making the point that a woman who's had her womb removed is still a woman, so why isn't a eunuch still a man? I hate the way that people who have been abused and disfigured while young are being somehow co-opted into this cause to validate other people's lifestyle choices.

I love the fact that the umbrella includes eunuchs. You know, a class of people who traditionally had no choice about being castrated as children and whose feelings about their "gender" were thus irrelevant to the people who castrated them.

aren't transgender women, women? They are no longer men, so it's not men claiming International Women's Day. It's women who once upon a time were male, but have since transitioned into a female body to match the female mind they feel they have

No. in the old days they may have been, but these days men just have to pop a frock on, and if you call them he/him they scream that you are a TERF and to go die in a fire. Like these ladies in the pictures.

Do you think they are women? If so why? If not, why not?

So, I recently came across the term 'non-binary' meaning those that consider themselves neither male nor female and prefer to be referred to as 'they' or 'them' rather than he/she him/her. Is the non-binary gender also under an umbrella term or is non-binary on its own, so to speak?

If you are a woman who likes football, drinking beer, chainsawing [me], or wearing jeans and a shirt - you are non-binary.

If you are a man who likes baking, manicures, has long hair, can arrange flowers or sewing - you are non-binary.

Most humans are non-binary. I am! I only know I am a woman due to the sexism, bleeding, breasts, being able to get pregnant for 35 years stuff.

What the new dawn of trans is - is about any child who a expresses non-binary preference, being rushed to a gender clinic, being given hormone blockers which can render children sterile, being called the wrong pronoun to their sex and basically telling kids that they are the opposite to their actual bodily sex. This is being done, and government funded, in schools by an organisation called 'Mermaids'.

What primarily men are doing, is putting a dress on in order to get off on infiltrating women's spaces. Autogynephilia is what it is called. I saw one 'trans' woman on twitter saying he doesn't suffer from it, he thoroughly enjoys it. It is being able to do this that is at the heart of the problem.

'Genuine' trans people are being thrown under a bus in order for mostly men to get their kicks, and until people understand the real issues and 'peak trans' - the general public just don't understand where this is going. People cannot call it out as they are subjected to the most horrific abuse. There is a court case this week when a grown man attacked a 60 year old woman for daring to voice having a problem with this. Women are having to meet in secret to discuss the impact of the self-ID law which may or may not be brought in.

It is utter madness, and does nothing for 'genuine' trans people who have a genuine dysphoric illness.

"It is utter madness, and does nothing for 'genuine' trans people who have a genuine dysphoric illness."

Absolutely agree based on what I've read hear. I'm astounded. I mean, according to the diagram I would be non-binary and under the trans umbrella because I'm not typically 'feminine' (as a teen I was frequently referred to as "will turn out to be a lesbian" because I was considered too 'masculine' for my gender).

Could I don some stereotypically male clothing and fill out a form saying I'm now male? Does it work both ways? Can trans men have vagina's?

Could I don some stereotypically male clothing and fill out a form saying I'm now male? Does it work both ways? Can trans men have vagina's?

Yes in theory. But bear in mind no one is taking transmen very seriously unlike the brave and stunning transwomen. I can't imagine why that is?

The GRA still has a exception clause that prevents a daughter who transitions inheriting a peerage over a male relative. Because transwomen are women but transmen are only men until they might gain from it. Ditto in Ireland where I believe there is an exemption to stop them becoming catholic priests.

FarmerSee

Technically you wouldn't even have to wear men's clothes. You could stay exactly the same and say that you are a "femme presenting transman."

I’ve even seen transactivists on our local FB page argue that women with PCOS are intersex to confuse the issue when women argue that biology is what defines woman as a category. I’ve seen a disturbing number of libfems now identify themselves as intersex because of PCOS and in some cases in the absense of a formal PCOS diagnosis proclaim themselves intersex because they have irregular periods so they can rush in and defend trans folk with their sex isn’t binary argument . I cannot eyeroll enough when women buy into this lunancy so hard that they’re willing to identify themselves out of their own biology based on the ravings of people suffering from a mental illness, which gender dysphoria is, but that’s another rant altogether as now according to the doctrine it’s tranphobic to even assume that trans people have to have disphoria to identify as trans

As a woman who has PCOS they can fuck the fuck off with that bullshit!

I have lost count of the amount of times i have reached #peaktrans. I wouldnt be suprised if it was in the millions by now to be honest.

farmersee - reading and realising what is happening is a really horrid place to be. It does not feel good. Ignorant bliss was like a warm blanket and #peaktrans feels as cold as ice. It sucks. It really does suck but mumsnet is the ONLY place to freely and safely read and talk about what is happening to womens rights. So i would like to say welcome, you are with friends here. I know the amazing people that post on this board have really helped me figure my thoughts out and have given me hope.

I’ve even seen transactivists on our local FB page argue that women with PCOS are intersex

It's what I always say: this is the ultimate expression of Generation Me! If X is what I feel then everybody better validate my feelings. If it inconveniences or even harm them, tough! They still better validate my feelings. And I'm not letting a pesky little thing like the biological difference between genotype and phenotype disturb me. In fact, I'm redefining biology to suit my personal feelz. And, no, this is neither solipsism nor narcissism. My feelings literally define objective reality!

... and this is truly only a little bit hyperbolic!

I empathise with Farmer See. Its a jaw dropping moment to realise the people you have supported for donkeys years,are the not the people being referred to. That a person can decide ,on the day they wake up, whether they are aman or woman that day,for example. I am clocking on a bit( quite a bit) and have supported trans people,defended trans people from decades back,but ths absolute nonsense is misogyny.
And as for deciding your undiagnosed medical condition(pcos)being ignored in favour a trans self id...give me strength.

For anyone new to all this, I think you have to really clarify the difference in your head between the words 'sex' and 'gender' - it wasn't until I worked this out / mn educated me that all the pennies dropped. But there's no going back!

So gender is a socially constructed idea of what a sex does, likes, roles etc.

Sex is biology.

Technically, a transsexual is still male as their chromosomes are xy. However, with surgery and a certificate etc a transsexual is recognised legally as a woman as gender or rather sex dysphoria is a recognised condition. (As mentioned though, many trans people today don't have true body dysphoria and retain their genitals.)

Character attributes are stereotypically gendered between the sexes eg girls are (thought to be by society) kind, diligent, loving, easily cry and boys are noisy, brave tough, can't/ shouldn't cry. This is very damaging for both sexes and extends to gendered toys causing issues too. 'Toys for girls' tend not to be technical or work on spatial awareness thus potentially limiting their skills in spatial tasks in maths. Boys toys tend not to be nurturing or caring eg dolls etc.

There's no gene that says boys don't like pink and sparkle or that girls don't like camouflage. There are many families who stick rigidly to these gender stereotypes. Even if they don't, ime, they're so ingrained in society that children absorb them very early - my son was saying pink is for girls at 2.5 (picked up from peers at nursery.)

And, simplistically, that's when it potentially gets confusing for young children who do like very stereotypically gendered toys linked their opposite sex. And why then some say (fuelled now by so much media presence of trans and organisations such as Mermaids) "Oh you're trapped in the wrong body!" Instead of just saying - it's just a toy. Play with it.

Sorry if that's a bit granny suck eggs, but might help if you wish to explain some of it to your children.

The description of the nail bar in the OP plays into a lot of these gender stereotypes and really is unnecessary at an international women's day imo! I don't understand how it tackles transphobia at all.

To add to the stereotypical toy issue; boys toys and media etc tend to discourage caring, nurturing roles. Uber masculinity and ingrained beliefs that they are / have to be strong and mustn't express their feelings / cry can lead to issues with anger depression etc, which some have linked to levels of male violence. (BBC documentary "no more boys and girls".

For real? Never mind the suffragettes, let's have nail art and use it to fight transphobia! Bloody hell.

The umbrella concept really doesn't make sense. My DH loves cooking and playing with kids. Is he non binary? Does he have to go under the umbrella? Or could we just accept that no one is a purely stereotyped cardboard cut out and thus everyone is non binary?

"I’ve even seen transactivists on our local FB page argue that women with PCOS are intersex"

Oh. My. Fucking. God.
Please tell me you're joking. I have PCOS. I am not intersex. I am a woman with a uterus, ovaries and a vagina. I've given birth (despite fertility issues). I have breasts -
although they weren't much good in the old breastfeeding department...maybe I'm NOT a proper woman afterall then!!

Christ on a bike. Ive never heard anything so ridiculous.

"I empathise with Farmer See. Its a jaw dropping moment to realise the people you have supported for donkeys years,are the not the people being referred to"

This thread really has been quite a shock, but a HUGE eye opener. Having seen a fair few transGENDER posts on FB recently my feelings towards them have been turned on its head entirely. I'm seeing it from a whole new perspective.