Peak Guardian

[hackmum]

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/feb/09/polyamory-trans-documentary-love-unlimited

'The film says my son and his partner regard themselves as non-binary “in that they identify as neither exclusively masculine nor feminine”. Wrong, says my son, when I discuss it with him: they see themselves as neither exclusively male nor female, but his partner strongly identifies as femme.'

Yes I read "daisy chain" and thought WTAF - you discussed this with your son?

Yes, that Psalm is about evil being repaid in kind - still don't think it is ever ethical to call the violent murder of infants as praiseworthy or something that should make one happy. What did those infants do to oppress the Jewish people that they deserve that?

While there are Christian New Testament verses on the purity of marriage and issues with adultery, there isn't really much that would condemn a polyamorous marriage. Certainly, nothing that condemns King David or revokes the idea that God gives wives to men if he so chose to do so.

If people are inherently evil, they can and will turn any book to support their actions. They can easily use the Bible to do so, it's been used to support all sorts of horrors in this world as have pretty much any unquestionable philosophy.

Dn4
The psalm isn't about the jews being happy, they're saying because you are evil you have tortured us, people will rejoice in destroying you, expect no mercy i.e. You reap what you sow... it's not saying it's good, it's used as an example, it's used because it's stark and striking.

The New Testament is very clear on monogamy. One man, one woman become one flesh.

If people read and understand what Jesus Christ says it can never be used for bad. Not everyone used to be able to access a bible because of illiteracy and because the expense of producing them.

Anyway that's my lesson over on Christian apologetics.

I didn't say that it made Jewish people happy. Psalms 137:9 verse is typically translated as either "Praiseworthy is..." or "Happy is he who takes and dashes your infants' heads against the rocks." I do not think there is any way, shape, or form one can ethically be praiseworthy or happy about murdering infants. That and making the daughters of Babylon destined to be plundered when the Babylonian captivity supposedly happened because of Israel's sins, I'm struggling to find much ethical or worthy to respect in that one. There are many other examples, that's just an easy one for showing Biblical morality is a bit bloodthirsty, might makes right, reflection of the societies it was written in.

I'm not really trying to argue Christian philosophy, I'm arguing that your idea that people have a tendency for evil and will make excuse themselves applies to Christians too and as such would apply to a mainly Christian society. There are plenty of church scandals...do you really think all of them are due to just not understanding the texts? That all that pain, harm, death was all a misunderstanding?

You seem to think I'm talking purely historical. I'm not, I'm talking within living memory, I'm talking now. Churches now forcing girls and women in marriage, churches now telling women that if they are raped it is because they and the female body are sinful and they are being punished/tested by God, churches now shunning women that men of the church have divorced, churches now silencing abuse victims with discussion of honouring and respecting parents and the church. It's all happened in my mother's generation - she was forced to marry and later shunned, it happened in mine, it's happening now.

I don't think that's happening because they can't read or buy a Bible. They're doing what they want and using the Bible as a very handy crutch as it has been used for millennia because they have the same issues with morality and power as anyone else and the log stuck in their eye is pretty comfortable because the entire system is designed to protect them. Most scandals, the crap above, sanctioned and protected by churches. As Christian as anything else because by what standard could any of us claim that the message and actions that a church supports are not Christian if not by our own interpretation and understanding of the text differing from theirs.

I studied the Bible for years, you can pretty much justify anything with it if one had the mind to do so...and some do. The understanding of the Bible has never been unchanging or solid. Do you really think a more Christian society would have stopped the issues with TRAs or polyamory? I'm struggling to find evidence for that, a lot of quite Christian places are just as much in this as everyone else, particularly if the end result looks a little straighter. There are still Christian churches that support polyamory when it's a guy with a bunch of women he owns. Religion is one of many social systems that build and maintain power structures with society, it will be used to keep that power.

I've not really found evidence Christianity, or any religion, gives a moral framework that would support a society that isn't inherently dependent on the interpretations and morals of the people within the religion. Moral Christians will do good, amoral Christians will use their understanding to excuse it. Religions seem more a reflection of the morals than create them. Right now, this TRA stuff is very religion-like with its rules and every changing doctrine. I think we need better than things that are currently being used to excuse the harm and murder of others as a good praiseworthy thing.

DN4- psalm 137- the bible as you know if you have studied it, is instructional in part, historical, poetic and symbolic in others, it in parts illustrates human nature in its goodness and also its brutality.
The part you refer to is written from the perspective of a persecuted Jew. It's not instructional, it's a reflection of the psalmist feelings on those that have done evil can expect it be returned. It's tone is mournful. The language is shocking because it's indented to strike the reader with the consequence of evil. It's not saying this is ethical, it's more prophetic in nature.

Jesus said there will be many false prophets and fake christians- not everyone calling on my name will be getting into heaven- I will say I don't know you, get away from me evil one. He said you will know the real ones by the good works that they do... the fruit they produce. He warns about the wolves in sheeps clothing.

As for other churches forcing marriage, condoning rape- I haven't heard of this. What I can say is that christians are currently the most persecuted group in the world- - there are recent cases where women are raped, eyes have been gauged out and all manor of terrible things happening to them and strangely silence from msm on the issue. Do a little digging and you will uncover just how bad it's getting.

You ask- you really think a more Christian society would have stopped the issues with TRAs or polyamory?
Yes I do, it's been foundational to our society, it's defined our laws and kept us relatively stable.
As CS Lewis said it's all well and good seeing through things, so long as you see something the other side. Well I don't see secular humanists coming up with anything decent that, as another poster said, that everyone subscribes to. There's nothing underpinning secular values, they can be changed at whim so the foundations can be easily rocked. All we are replacing values with is hedonism and individualism. The self above all else.

"You remove the organ and demand the function, you mock virtue and are surprised when traitors are in your midst"

Trotsky- We'll have nothing of the Papist-Quaker babble about the sanctity of human life"-
If life has an no inherent value, and why would it without believing in any higher purpose- that makes you and I disposable, collateral damage in the pursuit of the goal. It makes humans worthless.

The bible says that Christian persecution will increase- and it is- Jesus said that in the end they will hand you over to death. He reminds us that they hated him first.
Times are set to get worse- they will reject the truth and turn unto fables, they won't listen to the truth, becoming selfish, lacking natural affection.
I think by rejecting truth- depending on moral relativism- things will get worse I'm sure. Everything will get turned on it's head.

The battle between good and evil, I think is very much on.

www1.cbn.com/cbnnews/world/2018/january/double-persecuted-christian-women-raped-forced-to-marry-muslim-men-in-50-countries

It really needs more attention;

SR. ISABEL
“Wakeup” project organizer

“It's incredible that it's unknown that entire parishes, filled with people, are massacred. There are children from age seven to 11 who are asked if they're prepared to renounce Christ to keep living.”

In a nation where the ruling regime demands total control over the general public, anything that challenges the government's power is seen as a threat, including religion,' Jeff King, president of International Christian Concern, told Fox News. 'As a result, the North Korean government does everything in its power to squash the spread of Christianity

Religion always has to go when a dictatorship moves in because the state will have no cometition

www.google.co.uk/amp/www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5261287/amp/Persecution-Christians-rise.html

Please spare a thought for the christians who are being exterminated all over the world

If we could actually talk about the Guardian article again that would be great...

their own set of morals based on their interests that will likely entirely conflict with your own

Do you have any backing for that? Only I would have thought that actually, most peoples morals co-incide pretty well, rather than conflict.

Angry and Tallulah - yes, I wonder that too - people just floating around looking for someone to hitch their moral row-boat to rather than be responsible for it themselves, and in return, people who really, really enjoy having a posse of followers, just looking for people they can have the power to influence.

I've lived in a lot of different places (was an ex-pat kid) and in my experience there are more shared ethics than ethics that are different in most places. The variable in just how much unethical behavior people are allowed to get away with seems to generally be how firmly in control men are and to what extent women have any kind of social/political voice in a society.

(When we do we tend to protect not just ourselves but children too.)

Stoneage-
As I said Trotsky said that the idea of motion of sanctity of human life should be done away with.
Red guards in mao china, nazis- do you think their ethics are in line with your own, - no thought not.
When the red guards were going round killing people and beating them up. why do you think religion was targeted by the state, as the four olds? Because it's a block to influence the people.
There are many people that if they came to power would have no problem killing people off, inciting others to assist and seizing power. It's happened in the past, it's happening now. People aren't all subscribed to your morals by any means.

www.bbc.co.uk/schools/gcsebitesize/history/tch_wjec/germany19291947/2racialreligiouspolicy2.shtml

Hitler closed churches and sent priests to concentration camps because christianity was in opposition to his policy.

Every time a tyrant wants to take over religion is attacked, mocked and destroyed.

By freeing yourselves from christianity you are freeing yourself from freedom itself. GK Chesterton.

Are you still sure everyone has morals the same as your own....

Stalin-
The USSR anti-religious campaign of 1928–1941 was a new phase of anti-religious persecution in the Soviet Union following the anti-religious campaign of 1921–1928. The campaign began in 1929, with the drafting of new legislation that severely prohibited religious activities and called for a heightened attack on religion in order to further disseminate atheism.

Stalking killed millions, embarked on destroying Christianity, anti religious propoganda, banning it from school, calling people with faith morons

• there, do you think atheism is the path to freedom?

Missy, this thread is not about religion, or atheism. Do you have anything to say about the actual subject of the thread?

Angry- the page had slipped off the front, I was replying to a post. But perhaps you might consider what I'm saying or stop posting to me.

Jordan Peterson said on his interview that the transgender movement has parallels with communist takeover- so do the attacks on religion but people are missing the signs

People think they're embarking on the path to freedom by throwing christianity under the bus..... they are not, quite the opposite.
There are clear parallels between thing like trans movement and red guards in China.
MSM is part of the problem

One thread was enough in terms of considering what you're saying. You're now spamming the entire Feminism chat board with the same stuff over and over again, like the dude with the gorilla studies, and it's tedious. Maybe start a blog if this is the pet issue that you want to talk about endlessly?

"Free love" was promoted in Russia prior to communist takeover- see polyamory promotion by msm and attacks on monogamy- I have, its all related

Good grief. Missy, please take it elsewhere.

Angry attack kittens-
What I'm saying is related to trans activism, polyaandry promotion but your too ignorant to acknowledge that. If your not interested please feel free to leave the thread!
I've contributed to lots of threads and not mentioned this

It's really not. If there was a block/mute button I'd happily use it, but there isn't, and I'm not going to stop reading threads about subjects I'm interested in just because you can't resist the urge to Visit the Ungodly with Explanatory Comments at any opportunity.

Wow, the hostility on this forum is almost palpable at times.