Beginners Central - Transgender and feminism

[soupforbrains]

Hi all,

Thank you all for being so lovely on my other thread.

I am aware that I may be leaping into the shark tank here and so I'm really really hoping that you'll all be gentle.

I find the trans debate on here interesting but also terrifying. I'm hoping some of you experts will kindly and gently lay out the basic roots of the arguments.

I have always been very supportive of LGBTQ rights, and am avidly against homophobia, transphobia etc.

BUT I do understand that a pre-transition transgender person cannot be considered to be wholly the sex which they identify as. I also understand that in certain situations (such as women's refuges, changing rooms etc. ) giving pre-transition MtoFs equal rights and access to women's only areas diminishes the rights of women AND creates the potential for greater danger and threat.

But, I don't understand why there is such debate, in the sense that I can't see any solution which gives all groups the rights they deserve without impinging on the rights of another group. Has anyone come up with a solution?

Or does all the debate centre around preventing the encroach upon women's spaces and rights? And how best to stop that?

Soup

Gender critical means that you see gender as separate from biological sex. Gender is a social system of power relations imposed on us by patriarchal society. Transactivists see gender as an innate metaphysical essence, a bit like your soul. So these are completely incompatible ways of approaching gender.

Cis is a term transactivists use to indicate that a person is not trans. Gender critical people find this offensive as it suggests they "identify with" their gender - but for gencrit women this is the same as saying they "identify with" the oppression of women.

Debbie - Of course that can. The GRA panel can today, and a court could in the future. For a start the process as described in the Scottish consultation is far more involved than "download a form to sign". it involves solicitor ID checks, statutory declarations which carry 2 year false statement punishments and at the end of it all you have is a GRC (which is not a form of ID) and new birth certificate, without changing your passport, driving licence, bank details electoral roll, council tax utilities, the list goes on, your not going to get far proving your GRC is not fraudulent.

OK, download a form and sign in the presence of a notary. Big deal. Nobody is going to get in trouble for a fraudulent statement. There are no material particulars against which to judge whether the statement is false. Having different details on other ID is neither here nor there - loads of us have different ID in different names because for example we've changed name on marriage and haven't bothered changing everything, we haven't changed name on marriage but some orgs have assumed we have and we're too lazy to correct them, we keep old names / make new names for professional purposes. This is legal as long as it's not done for fraudulent purposes.

If someone attempted to claim a trans person falsely signed the form because they hadn't changed their other ID they'd have a solid discrimination case because they would be being treated differently from other people because they were trans.

Also of course even if all their ID is in their new identity how does that prove they're genuine? What does 'genuine' even mean here?

How many GRCs have been revoked by the panel? Any at all?

and at the end of it all you have is a GRC (which is not a form of ID) and new birth certificate

I do agree it's not worth the bother of getting one. It's been pretty much obsolete since we got equal marriage. Which is why I find it very strange that we suddenly need to make the process stupidly stupidly easy. There are vanishingly few situations where a GRC makes a difference. Off the top of my head, AWS and prisons.

So fuck that shit.

I'm so sorry OP, I came here to give you some links and got distracted by that post

This article is great for understanding how we got here: When Women’s Rights Are #NotaDebate

This is a good rundown of what changes to the GRA, and other changes to the equality act that are being discussed, would mean for women & girls: SAGES factsheet.

The current proposals come from Maria Miller's Trans Equality Report.

Oh god... I didn't realise Maria Miller was involved...

I can't bear to look... are her proposals any good or are they awful?

They're awful. Self-ID to get a GRC and at the same time removal of sex-based exceptions in the equality act for those with a GRC. Less gatekeeping for children, demedicalisation for adults bla bla bla (although they did stop short of backing surgery on demand). Also work with Sports England to 'help sporting groups realise that there are likely to be few occasions where exclusions are justified to ensure fair competition or the safety of competitors.'

Oh god. I work in her constituency and she it an utter utter moron. She visits my office regularly (for some reason I'm yet to ascertain) but the senior management never let us know when she's coming. Presumably because they (rightly) think someone (me) will do or say something to her...