Trans and disabled loos

[TerfClub]

I saw a brief twitter exchange this morning (on an app and no idea how to link) saying that the third space for transwomen, instead of using women's toilets or creating a third space, that disabled toilets should be used as they are usually empty.
In rl I've heard similar suggestions.
I don't know how I feel about this.
On one hand, it might appear to be a suitable suggestion, but on the other, is that not taking away a facility designed and created for disabled people who cannot access toilets otherwise?

To me the ideal solution would be a further space, but in reality this isn't always a possibility, so should disabled toilets be re-designated to cater for those who find it uncomfortable to use mens or ladies toilets?

Why the fuck is the suggestion always..just take from another group that needs their space? Seriously. Do your own fucking legwork and campaign rather than co-opt.

I would join any campaign for a trans space btw. i am just angry at this suggestion

I really wish disabled loos didn't have loud hand dryers #missesthepoint

Depends. For anyone who will admit they have sexy dysphoria that necessitates use, I don't mind sharing - same as any other mh condition.
If they insist it is not a mh problem, not needing diagnosis or medical treatment etc etc, I'm much less happy about it

Plus there's the large asd crossover, and the fact that unsuccessful bottom surgery can leave them incontinent.

Wtf is sexy dysphoria, iPad autocorrect?

Yes, even if you think it would be small numbers, the principal is wrong. Disabled people who have no other option but to use accessible facilities shouldn't have their spaces compromised by other groups with different needs.

Campaign for extra third spaces, or if you must take space, take it from the group that has the least need which imo is space from the men's toilets.

Something I do not appreciate, is people who are not disabled volunteering our toilets on our behalf. Bear in mind please drradfem, that there are plenty of disabled women supporting issues with toilets/changing rooms despite it not directly impacting us.

I have a disability which only sometimes requires the use of a disabled/accessible bathroom so I don’t have the same needs as someone who always requires it (due to mobility problems etc). I think it is important to protect disabled bathrooms and dislike how baby changing always ends up in the bathroom. Obviously changing facilities should be in there for parents with disabilities and also for people with disabilities who need changing facilities but both would have to be specially adapted.

But while baby changing can happen with a changing station in the men’s and women’s toilet, it is harder for trans people to just’ go to either one. I doubt a lot of you support someone mid transition going into a woman’s bathroom, but also it might be dangerous for those whi are clearly not identifying as men to go into men’s toilets. Where are they meant to go exactly?

They are a very small percentage of the population meaning not is unlikely to cause delays, having to wait etc (when often this is impossible of course for someone with a disability) - compared to the issue of baby changing, I think this issue is not the thing which needs the focus it has, and I also think that this is the best solution: I use the disabled bathroom because it is the only place I can use sometimes (depending on my myoclonic jerks + I sometimes experience Todd’s paresis for a day after a seizure), and I would expect a trans person to be aware that many people with disabilities cannot wait etc (so being quick, if there is someone waiting then they go first etc) but I’m not sure what other bathroom would guarantee the safety of women and trans people.

Or a third space, somehow would be good. Maybe a ‘family bathroom’ where people who shouldn’t be using a disabled bathroom but might need space (taking children in with them because no one else can supervise, buggy, changing space) but might need a neutral space could have. I feel uncomfortable that trans people do not need the specific facilities of a disabled bathroom, with the specific ‘facility’ often including being empty when you need it as much as possible, but they don’t have other options often. Idk.

I do think there is a solution in building all toilets to the design of disabled loos though. I mean, why shouldn’t all toilets be disabled accesible for one thing, and for women who are pregnant/menstruating/miscarrying/accompanying small children the larger cubicle with a hand washing sink would be great. For me, this is the sensible solution to all the trans nonsense. Of course we would need a separate baby changing room and separate urinals. This would accommodate everyone, the downside of course would be the lack of camaraderie in shared women’s loos that you get, but it would be worth it to shut the idiots up once and for all.

The only way this should be considered acceptable is if they were going to put in EXTRA accessible toilets whilst widening the access to be gender neutral and keep the original accessible toilet for people with disabilities.

And the very fact that trans have managed to change toilet provisions so quickly really pisses me off considering that accessible toilets are still so lacking and generally quite shit where they do exist as well despite decades of campaigning. Really shows how much of a lie the whole "most oppressed group ever" thing is.

Something I do not appreciate, is people who are not disabled volunteering our toilets on our behalf.

I'm not disabled, but this is why I feel,uncomfortable about it. Women don't want their spaces appropriating, but it's ok to offer someone else's space?

I have Crohn's, so a hidden disability, and there are times when I have little to no warning that I need to get to the loo. I use the ordinary loos when I don't need the handbasin in the cubicle. I would not appreciate a person who didn't need the facilities of a disabled loo using it all the time.

We would need far more disabled toilets, may I suggest taking the space from the men's toilets?

Going to get totally flamed for this but here goes.

1. There is little to no statistical data to show that trans folk are in any danger in the loos at all.

1. Fully transitioned trans women have been using the loos of their chosen gender for a decade or more with no issues.

1. AGPs who wish to barge into women's loos in order to swing their dick about among the "girls" are a group about whom I have no concern at all.

No changes are needed to the facilities are needed as far as I can see. Unless it's to add more disabled facilities for actual disabled people. That might be nice.

Little bit of redundancy crept into my final paragraph there. Ooops.

Foraging exactly

If it turns out to be a problem I will go and use the men's 'sitting facilities' as I have done in the past when the ladies queues have been to long.I think that in busy areas this will not be an issue it is in quieter,less frequented Lois and changing rooms that the problems may occur.

Trans advocates got transgenderism reclassified from a mental illness to a medical condition so in that respect it would kinda sorta make sense for them to use the disabled loo if they cannot tolerate their same sex loo. They won't though. They want access to segregated female space. They have made that quite clear every time an alternative accommodation has been offered.

Initially disabled toilets did seem a 'logical' solution to me but they really aren't. It would just be shifting the problem onto someone else and I have no interest in doing that. Isn't it strange that the only people not (as far as I've seen anyway) trying to find a fair solution to this problem are the ones creating it?

I'd like to see some changes with toilets.

I use a wheelchair and my disability also means that when I have to wee, I have to wee urgently. It is definitely a myth that disabled toilets are not often used, depending on where they are located of course. An accessible toilet in a small office may appear unused as opposed to a public toilet in a shopping mall, for example. I think its the latter which are the problem.

We all need to be able to use the toilet without feeling distressed. I'd offer the suggestion that baby changing facilities be relocated to a large cubicle in the ladies toilets, and, in big and busy locations, multiple (2 or 3 perhaps?) accessible, private, unisex toilets be provided. Maybe with a radar lock, the keys for which can be cheaply purchased. These can then be used by anyone who feels the need to use them.

When waiting for the accessible toilet to become unoccupied I can say that very rarely is it someone using a wheelchair that emerges. I feel that the numerous reasons to use this toilet, many of them invisible, have been overlooked hence there being a bit of a shortage of such facilities. It's not only wheelchair users that need the space.

Would this be a solution for trans people? Am I underestimating the financial feasibility of these additional facilities or is it space that's the issue?

People with disabilities have fought for their spaces and for access to participation in public life just as women have. So, while I'm not disabled and wouldn't dream of speaking on behalf of everyone who is even if I were:

This: Something I do not appreciate, is people who are not disabled volunteering our toilets on our behalf.

Not much different than TIM deciding for women that we're okay to share with them the spaces our mothers and grandmothers fought for, surely?

I worked at a college with fantastic facilities, on each floor there were male, female and accessible toilets, each accessible toilet was different in that one had a hoist, another had a shower, third had a bed and a hoist - you get the idea.

Anyway one of these was designated as also for transgender people.

I have also been to a uni where the toilets were all single cubicles with a proper lockable door, wash basin, toilet etc they could be used by anyone (able bodied) regardless of sex, gender, self identification, I think this is the way we should be moving.

You have single cubicle toilets on trains and planes and no seems to have a problem with them.

Yeah, let's shift the problem to the lowest ranking in societal order...
When we reach those without a voice the problems will be solved.

foraging not flaming you but...

1. Hardly anyone had a problem with the status quo of dysphoric transwomen using women's toilets on a case by case basis.

1. You're okay with sharing toilets with AGP men. Fine. But I'm not. Why should I be legally required to provide props for a man's fetish? I don't want to do that. I don't consent.

1. However, the really big problem is that the normalization of self ID will allow any old male to access women's spaces whenever they wish. There are huge problems here: increased potential for predatory behavior, privacy and dignity issues, infringement of religious freedom etc. etc.

Re disabled loos, disabled trans people should use them and others should use the toilet of their sex, IMO. Alternatively, I like PPs suggestion of putting more cubicles in the men's and relabeling them unisex. This would accommodate women who aren't bothered either way and trans people, whilst preserving single sex loos for women and girls who want them.