new member rambling

[Lefty99]

Hi,
I have been following this page for a few weeks now trying to figure out my views on the whole trans/self id thing. Thanks for all of your posts, such funny, clever women on here :) I'm really horrified with everything that's going on to silence women/dissent on this issue. I am a Labour party activist and find myself completed isolated with my views on this issue within my circle. People who I agree with 100% on every other issue are completely opposite to me with this. Reading social media you would think we were all monsters ! Does anyone else ever doubt themselves?
Has anyone had any success winning people round to their way of thinking? If so how??
On the other hand I saw a pro-trans post on a left wing page today and a critical sciency comment got loads of likes (4x as many as any other comment) so maybe people are coming round?
Anyway just wanted to say hi before I started posting on other threads. I think you lot will be my lifeline!

Welcome Lefty

Welcome from me, too.

I wish I had answers for you - but just keep on keeping on is all I can offer!

Welcome, lefty!

I'm all out of ideas for improving things right now, feeling a bit demoralised myself, but you're definitely not alone.

I allow myself doubt; I don’t think it’s a bad thing, at all.

hi Lefty- you could try hanging out with older folk- my limited observation is that it's the younger lot who are more taken in by this.
If you can remember attacks on abortion rights, section 28, the setting up of refuges, the first reclaim the night marches....you have a clearer view I think

Lefty - take part in the Labour democracy review online. You can give your view as an individual member. The relevant section is Diversity and Equality. You give your name and email address. The more people do it the less of chance of them expelling everyone!!

Hi Lefty

Doubt is good, it means you're still thinking.

For me the clincher is my conviction that sterilising children (specifically those with mh problems, abuse histories and asd, and those who will grow up to be homosexual) is definitely not progressive

But I would love to live in a world where gender was optional

Hopefully the tide will turn soon and we will be able to have that debate.

BTW - I never doubt myself on this issue. I sometimes waver on the issue of the best way to stop trans identifying people becoming collateral damage in this fight for women's survival, but the facts, no.

There is no such thing as sex change.

I have never deliberately changed someone's mind on this issue, but I do try to challenge people whenever it comes up irl.

People come out of the woodwork and say they agreed with something I have said on social media, but their job would be at stake if they admitted it openly - which is nice - because all these 'unliked' posts of mine seem to be flung into the void unnoticed, up until then.

People often listen to men and TIMs more readily than women, so this article might get them to pipe up www.thetimes.co.uk/article/transgender-women-criticise-reform-xtp9n6mn0

I post on Twitter under my real name. I started making gender critical posts a while ago and retweeting links to such things as TW in female sports and transing of kids.

I have had quite a few people I know in RL message me to tell me that I have made them think about this issue and that it has changed their minds. Most of these people (not all) were typical left leaning people who are pro gay rights etc and had just accepted Trans as another aspect of that.

So the message is keep on keeping on.

(I have also had people I know tell me my tweets are directly contributing to why young trans identifying people kill themselves. While I have immense sympathy for young people caught up in this contagion I'm not going to be complicit in a lie which directly harms women. I'm always respectful within the bounds of telling the truth - e.g. I won't call a man 'she' but I'll call him Flora if that's his name).

Thanks everyone!

newtlover - The older people in my circle are all pro trans too? I think I need to widen my circle but it's difficult subject to brooch isnt it!

Rb67 - will do, thank you

GuardianLions - that article looks really interesting, it's behind a paywall. Looks like I'm going to have to subscribe as the Times is the only paper critically covering this issue!

Dorade- that's exactly it people think it's the same issue as gay rights and somehow we are just out of date dinosaurs 😔 I started posting a few critical articles on social media after a bloke got demolished for saying the most uncontroversial things about this issue. No response yet but it's less stressful to be openly critical than silently seething I think !

Hello, re doubting myself, yes quite often I think "am I just wrong about this?"

I try really hard to see it from the other perspective, as I once did, and in lots of ways I do but there are still just too many 'holes' in the ideology that don't make sense. For example gender is described as both a social construct imposed on us by the world we live in but also an innate, real 'essence' that can be felt and observed in the body.. Now surely you can't have it both ways?! It's either real or it isn't. It seems very clear to me that gender and sex are being discussed interchangeably when actually we're quite often talking about two different things, which is what is causing a lot of the frustration. If we could have a proper debate whereby everyone understands and agrees on the definitions of gender, sex, woman, man, etc as a starting point then we might actually make some progress, but everyone seems to have their own conflicting definitions so conversations just go round in circles.

This is one area where I retain some doubt, or an open mind. I think it’s quite possible that there is part of the brain that generates what we experience as ‘gender identity’ but that this is so heavily influenced by culture (or constructed) that hormonal or surgical body modification is not a sensible answer to a subjective sense of mismatch.

So I’m prepared to believe trans may be a ‘real’ thing, while not believing transwomen are literally women.

Welcome Lefty

It's not you, it's them. As in I think much of the general public who are pro trans ideology precisely because they haven't really thought it through. They assume it's like gay rights and don't want to be guilty of wrongthink.

Some of the more clued up ones remain pro trans ideology because it suits other agendas they have e.g. men who would like to see positive discrimination for women in politics, academia, the workplace etc...dismantled.

Don't give up responding and challenging though especially online. For every person that publicly disagrees with you there might be ten more lurking that peak trans.

Welcome :)

Has anyone had any success winning people round to their way of thinking? If so how??

Nearly all of my friends are now gender critical I have found 'peaking' them really easy to be honest. Most did not have a clue how this whle thing was going now and still thought 'trans' meant postop transsexual. Easiest way for me has been bringing up transing GNC children (pointing out the homophobia in this, and that 'blockers' are chemo drugs that are obviously dangerous and are NOT reversible in practise) or a very easy way with the lefty dudebro types, simply asking them if they would consider a transwomn as a sexual partner. Some say yes, so I show them the likes of Danielle Muscato and ask them, they splutter on a bit but do admit it eventually.

Cotton ceiling is extremely effective too. Though every single one of my lesbian frends did not need the cotton ceiling mentioned, as they had had experience with it. My sister had a horrific experience with a hidden penis type.

Mind, in my case it really helps having a transsexual family member. She is gender critical and very vocal about it. When talking to people on facebook and the likes, if they start calling me transphobic she does get involved, and tells them they are being ridiculous

The few who stuck to their guns and kept their head in the sand and refused to believe anything and called me a bigot..have now seen the Rose McGowan video (and the reaction to it) and apparently it all clicked into place for them from that. Obviously not judging all trans people on the behaviour of that one, but they say they suddenly saw how misogynistic the whole thing is and were very shocked by the unwavering support for a paedophile and the kicking off about misgendering him.

It really really helps to emphasize that you are not 'anti-trans' (assuming you are not) but 'pro-woman' and pro children tbh. And standing against homophobia..pro lesbian.

If you are quite new to this whole topic, you may find this thread interesting, if you have not already read it of course
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3146166-Transactivism-and-the-lesbian-community

That post makes me sound really militant. I swear I am not and I do not really set out to 'peak' people either. Just conversations evolve and as soon as it becomes obvious that the person is actually thinking, rather than parroting, then the conversation evolves, and they do turn gender critical. It seems like the natural progression to me. So so many people parrot the 'transwomen are women' line without ever thinking about what they are saying, so when they do think, even just a little, it all falls apart.

Typing that out, another thing I found effective with one person was going down the..why is it always transwomen, why don't we hear anything from transmen? Isn't that strange. Route.

I always question myself but I have not had doubts on this issue since the trans identified males started messaging me rape and death threats for refusing to subscribe to their beliefs about transubstantiation.
Trans identified males are a subset of category male. Obviously.
Trying to convince people that trans identified males are a subset of category female is absurd, and yet here we are.

My question for the government remains the same.
Can you mandate belief?
Can you codify into law the idea that some people can mind over matter themselves out of material reality and into the opposite sex and must be treated accordingly?
It is like transubstantiation. A belief that no one actually believes.
Will you allow people to drug and mutilate children based on this belief that no one believes?

Hi Lefty. I think many (most?) of us are left or left leaning on most issues and like you I have found it difficult at times to feel I may not be on the liberal side of things as it’s where I am naturally comfortable. I find it helpful to think then about how homophobic the TRA movement is and remember places like Iran have totally embraced it as a way of dealing with gay and lesbian people. It’s totally regressive. This is not a left vs right issue.

OnTheList

Your post is really interesting. In terms of the progression people go through before they 'peak'.

Blithely redefining the word woman to include men, doesn't seem to cut the mustard. Nor the science. Nor the assertion that it will be abused.

There actually have to be examples of how it is exploited. And even then, there have to be quite a few, or they have to be extreme.

The Rosie McGowan video seems to have made it click for a lot of people.

Do you think it's because people are unaware of quite how often the ideology is invoked for dubious purpose? That it is simply that they aren't seeing it happen?

So a sort of naivete that believes it won't happen (until it does).

Or do you think it's real reluctance to let go of what they see as natural progression of acceptance? A challenge to their internal sense of 'good citizenship' for want of a better phrase.

Datun I think Jazz Jennings is a good example as a lot of people are aware of them. Now that Jazz's situation isn't quite panning out as a utopia of childhood transition I find it gives people pause for thought.

After an adolescence of puberty blockers then cross hormones Jazz is left with the genitals of a very young boy and very limited (if any) vagioplasty surgical options.

I find asking people what the future holds for Jazz fairly effective or at least if it doesn't change their mind about adult transitioners it gets them thinking about the children.

OvaHere

I completely agree about Jazz Jennings.

One of the things I don't understand is how they allowed a certain segment to be broadcast.

Where the surgeon in question seemed fairly surprised that the hormones and puberty blockers had left Jazz with a pre-pubescent penis.

Indicating Jazz's breasts he said that the drugs it done them a favour there, then indicating their groin and saying, but not down there.

As though the outcome couldn't have been predicted!

Blaming the drugs.

Naughty drugs, we didn't think you'd do that.

Now what do we do?

Yes Datun and that's without venturing into the territory of what blocking puberty does to the brain and the implications of that.

I think its probably a bit of both.

Big obvious events like the Rose thing and the reaction to it from various places are so...in your face..that its kind of impossible to ignore. Then starts the little niggle that maybe there is much more to this than 'gay rights'. Thn people think, and research a little, and find out its nothing like gay rights.

It only takes one thing to get that niggle there. Its different things for different people..different 'triggers' if you like. Its the niggle that brings on peak trans, not the actual event I think.

what blocking puberty does to the brain and the implications of that.

Yes, this really really needs to be explored. It stands to reason to me that if puberty is blocked, then the vital brain devleopment that happens at that time is also halted.