Reframing the argument on our terms - suggestion

[ShotsFired]

As I was dropping off to sleep last night, my mind was roaming all over this. Herewith what I recall thinking, opening it up to see if you think stands up to scrutiny.

1. How about instead of trying to define what a woman is, we start from the position of saying what it isn’t?

Most people are “duh, of course female doesn’t = male” so widescale agreement seems more likely and it would be a minority and unusual position to disagree. Humans like to agree, so giving them an easy one seems like a no-brainer.

Examples:
“Women are adult females. Girls are juvenile females. The defintion of females excludes people with XY chromosomes, and people with penises, scrotums, sperm or the DNA/biology originally designed to support this. ”
“Of course feeling transgender doesn’t mean changing biological sex – that is scientifically impossible!”

1. Also how about refuting the premise of the question, and/or answering with the response we want to give, and/or proactively pushing reasonable and obvious solutions, instead of just repeatedly saying “no” and being seen as evil transphobes?

Kind of related to 1, where we’re stating reasonable things that it is far easier to agree with than not. But also coming up with solutions to the problems like how you’re advised to in work environments.

Examples:

Response to a claim:
“Transwomen are women!”
“We fully agree that transmen and women need their own “third spaces”, and we support them in establishing this, in order to be safe from predatory and violent men, just as women have done and continue to do so in our own safe spaces.”

Statement-type thing:
”We believe that the new provision of “third spaces” that run alongside existing safe spaces for women are eminently fair requirements for the trans community. The provision of gender neutral facilities will enable all trans people to live their daily lives with dignity and safety, and the establishment of trans-focused and managed safe spaces will ensure every section of society can be protected and kept safe from those that wish to harm them, with dignity and security for all.”

Go-er or not?

Not that these are bad suggestions, they are eminently sensible but I’m afraid they’ve already been tried. Done to death in fact. Unfortunately, logic and reason only work in people who are already inclined to be gender critical. It’s just not possible to use logic and reason to argue someone out of a position that they didn’t arrive at through logic and reason. In a culture where people can believe and say out loud that penis is female, your kind of explanation is not much use. Sorry, I don’t mean to put your fire out, it’s a great fire and you should keep stoking it.

I wonder if you have visited Rebecca Reilly Cooper’s blog? She articulates all of your points in depth in a way that’s really hard to argue with. That doesn’t stop people arguing back, of course. But she is exemplar of thinking about the difference between sexual and gender.

Thanks @wrappedupinmyselflikeaspool. I probably should have started with "This has probably been thought of..." so my apologies to those who are sat there banging heads against desks

I guess my falling-asleep consciousness was that this more directed to the greater public (or our friends and family) who are not yet comprehending of the gravity/real dangers of the situation, as yes of course this tactic will be like screaming at a hurricane if it's tried on TRAs - although I still reckon not joining in with their argument has merits?

I don't think I have seen Rebecca Reilly Cooper's blog, but I will go and google it now, thank you!

Problem is, a lot of TRAs see it as their absolute right to use female sex-segregated spaces as a form of activism.

So the offered 'third spaces' are an insult to them.

THEY ARE WOMEN. WHY DON"T WE GET IT.

oh yes, we get it. Pricks.

I think the more confident we all get with these kinds of common-sense arguments and this centring of female experience, the less it will matter that some blind alleys of feminist discourse are focussed on chanting 'transwomen are women' in a cult-like fashion.

I've been trying 'when we're naked in my gym changing room, how do I know a naked male is a nice transwoman and not a sex offender or a confused gentleman?'