The definition of 'Woman'

[MountainsofMars]

Getting more and more angry about this.

You know, I don't really care about policing trans people - live & let live - whatever their issues, they are generally not particularly happy or content people. I feel sorry for most of them, really. how patronising

What I am increasingly ANGRY about is the way that current discussions play fast and loose with the definition of woman. It's just the latest misogynistic attempt to shut us up, in a long line of misogynistic patriarchal attempts.

Men have been defining us since Genesis.

Women, as Germaine Greer said, are not just men with their penises cut off. Women are not "lack" as Freud theorised. We are not hysterical, with our wombs on the loose wandering around our bodies, as hundreds of years of medical men thought. We are not made of Adam's rib, thank you very much Jewish & Christian patriarchs.

Urgh. I'm just so so tired of it all.

Two x chromosomes. The end.

I hear you

Boobs and babies.

I agree. It as if it's been decided that human females don't need words to describe themselves.

Or that it's only men who can define women.

Of course, we don't get any pubic discourse about defining "man" - because we all know what that is, and anyway, men don't need defining. They just are.

But women have to justify their place in this world. We can't simply just be. And be fully human.

Depressing.

pubic discourse about defining "man"

I love your typo.

Pubic discourse: "Men have penile pubic protuberances"

Genotypically female adult human...

I hear you xx

Keep this in your soul. I am woman hear me roar!

Abso-fucking-lutely.

I am so, so fucking angry at having my experiences and biological reality reduced by misogynistic cunts to a series of fuck holes, reductive and oppressive stereotypes and co-opted by aggressive, abusive sexual predators.

I get angrier every fucking day.

I am a biological woman.

I will not be silenced.

I will not deny scientific fact.

I will not grovel at the feet of an aggressive man who thinks "woman" is a pretty dress, getting off on sexual harrassment in the street, and getting raped by men.

I will not tolerate my young lesbian friends being coerced into sex with men with penises.

15 years ago I might have drunk this Kool Aid.

I can see how it happens.

But......please......let's fucking stop this bizarre, Black Mirror-esque madness.

And you know, I am getting so sick of having to police my language so that I don't say with 'real woman' in these sorts of discussions.

Although I am - even though I've never had children. Even though I'm in a job which is only 14% women. Even though I never wear make up.

It's exhausting.

BBC have done a straw poll....

www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-42864916/who-or-what-defines-you-as-a-woman

On his BBC show this morning, Andrew Marr asked Amber Rudd if TIMs who hadn't had surgery to "become full biological women" should be allowed in women's prisons.

MEN. ARE. FUCKWITS.

They really do think women are just failed, penis-lacking, versions of themselves.

This particular one is paid hundreds of thousands of pounds a year to say something this IGNORANT, this OFFENSIVE live on air. AND I HAVE TO PAY FOR THE PRIVILEGE OF WATCHING.

(Sorry for all the capital letters. Can't promise I won't do more of them though.)

Don’t apologise. Shouting is appropriate

The other thing we are not is "failed men".

So men who feel they are not suited to manhood can't pick "woman" is their next option.

Fuck off. Fuck right off with your cocks and patronising belittling.

The thig is, I know I've shared public toilets with TIMs. I know because some of them don't pass half as well as they'd like to think they do.

And not once have I felt threatened. I wouldn't challenge someone because they were going for a wee. I don't care particularly if there is a TIM in the next cubicle whilst I'm changing a tampon. I'm quite happy to exchange a friendly smile of acknowledgement with a TIM who is reapplying their lipstick whilst I brush my hair.

What I am not ok with is the vile hatred with which I know some of them view us. I'm not happy with any old Tom, Dick or, well, Dick being able to self id as a means of threatening and abusing women. And I'm not ok with being vulnerable (toilets, healthcare settings, overnight accommodation etc) with people who openly despise me.

This isn't about women vs gender dysphoric people, for me. This is about women's ability to talk about ourselves and our experiences without being silenced. It doesn't matter how many men identify as women, I'm still going to have periods, I'm still at risk of cervical cancer and I'm still at risk of vaginal rape by a man who is far bigger and physically stronger than I am.

I need to be able to talk about these things and protect myself from danger without men getting upset about it or silencing me.

Their 'whataboutery' and silencing anything to do with biology is harmful to us and the greatest show of privilege I think I've ever experienced in my life. We can't talk about wombs, vaginas, breast feeding, periods because they are not experiences men share/talk about.

Fuck off.

Not really on topic but I’ve been wondering... Anyone else seen the new Dove advert with the 4 kids? Is one a boy in a skirt?

Haven't seen it. Will keep an eye out.

I have seen the make up advert where the people are talking about better colour match foundation and there is a man.

See, I don't have an issue with a man being on a make up advert. I've had boyfriends who wore make up, and I hate the whole 'women wear make up' narrative but he was very obviously a man and I would be very cross to find out he was a TIM.

Make up for men is sooooo 1990s!

I avoid anything Dove after the whole transmother thing.

I've seen recently that a few high profile drag artists have been used as ambassadors by make up brands (mostly US I think). I think this could be a good thing provided that it's aimed at making beauty products more gender neutral.

It bothers me a bit though that it's more aimed at influencing teen girls and women to think that drag make up is an aspirational way for females to look given that much of drag is highly sexualised stereotypes.

I think I have decided that the definition of ‘woman’ is someone with hairy balls, balding head, watches telly with their hands down the front of their trousers, is an expert on AA Road Routes, has a drawer full of defunct chargers and Unidentified cabling, and plays 5 a Side Footie in the mud in the park in February.

I am a bit concerned that some Transwomen might struggle with this, but it is how I define a woman and I am a Labour Party member and therefore able to self-define.

So men who feel they are not suited to manhood can't pick "woman" is their next option.

Yes, this.

And another thing ... this is the venting thread, right?
Some brave women over the last 200-300 years have risked a lot (incarceration in prison or asylum, loss of custody of children, public humiliation) to expand the possibilities of what women can do, and to break down damaging stereotypes of femininity.

Where are the men doing this, who don't feel 'right' as men? Oh no, they're just appropriating women's roles & position. It's gay men (comfortable with their masculinity) and straight men (also comfortable with their masculinity) who are doing this work.

Why don't men who find masculinity difficult (and who could blame them?) work together wth feminists to expand the possibilities of what it is to be a man?

PS have a follow on Twitter of Michael Conroy - he's ace.

This is about women's ability to talk about ourselves and our experiences without being silenced.

Yes.

And one important way to be able to do that is to do it in groups of women who are biological women. Even for men who've felt dis-ease with their male bodies, they have still been raised and conditioned in masculinity.

And women and men are known to behave differently in mixed groups than in single sex groups. Because of this socialisation.