Thoughts on Jo Swinson?

[Ekphrasis]

I'm starting to listen to Women’s hour as much as possible on catch up partly as I'm a fan and partly to see if I can catch any whiff of what's going on there about silencing Women’s voices.

I caught the bit on Jo Swinson (deputy Lib Dem leader) last Thursday, she's published a book about 'Equal Power.'

Given the things going on in the LP I thought it interesting and possibly pertinent. Can't see much that's gender critical on her twitter though she does seem to be aware of gender stereotypes being v damaging in childhood.

Just wondered if anyone knew any more about her?

Not familiar with Jo's personal views but I'd be very surprised if publicly she did not support self-Id.
It will be very difficult for any LibDem to speak out against self-Id. I'm trying to find a clear policy on this issue at the moment.

Lib Dems have a clear policy.

www.libdemvoice.org/transgender-rights-core-to-lib-dem-values-56487.html

We don't speak out against self Id because we believe in Self Id.

‘The Liberal Democrats exist to build and safeguard a fair, free and open society, in which we seek to balance the fundamental values of liberty, equality and community, and in which no one shall be enslaved by poverty, ignorance or conformity. We champion the freedom, dignity and well-being of individuals, we acknowledge and respect their right to freedom of conscience and their right to develop their talents to the full….

We look forward to a world in which all people share the same basic rights, in which they live together in peace and in which their different cultures will be able to develop freely.’

All people means trans people as well.

She was on question time in Thursday. She referenced how few statues of women there are in Westminster. The question was about should there be a statue of Thatcher.
I suspect she possibly isn't comfortable with the direction of travel but I have no evidence for that.

Apart from my LibDem MP who agreed with every word I said on this when I met him recently. Which is marvellous, until you realise he has a history of doing this, followed by not doing very much of anything at all.

Thanks for the link to Sal Brintons post mcgarry, i had been looking for Party policy agreed by conference/committee to clarify the position. I'm assuming this means that self Id will also extend to stats, sport etc.
I didn't expect anything else to be honest.

Thanks for clarifying this. It's a shame. She's possibly either not aware of issues yet or deliberately ignores.

Or she's fully aware and doesn't agree with you? Maybe because she knows and respects a number of trans people and is willing to see them as individuals and not discriminate against them all because of the actions of a small minority of them?

She’s my MP. She’ll toe the party line on every topic.

" not discriminate against them all because of the actions of a small minority of them?"
?
Not sure what this means in the context of all women shortlists?
Also, interesting to see that the LibDems have adopted the Labour stance of someone deciding somewhere that self-id only is required, rather than a discussion and adoption at Conference?

There isn't a single Lib Dem MP that toes the party line. Put 3 Lib Dems in a room and you'll get 4 different opinions - it's kind of what we do. Jo is fully on board with trans rights -

She said: “I’m not sure how to make the Labour party see sense in so many ways (nor can a good chunk of their MPs). It’s very simple really: All WOMEN shortlists. Trans women are women, so obviously should be eligible.”

It wasn't just in the context of AWS. But on AWS, we debated (vociferously) at conference in March 2016 and agreed to have them. The policy as written allowed self id and no-one argued that it shouldn't. It specifically noted the "Liberal Democrats’ commitment to eliminating all prejudice and discrimination based upon race, colour, religio or belief, age, disability, sex, gender identity or sexual orientation"

IIRC two trans women spoke in the debate, neither particularly referencing their trans status but simply speaking as women who would be affected by the policy. And actually one was for it and one was fundamentally opposed to the whole concept of AWS.

What a shame that's currently illegal...

Hi MrsMcGarry. Sorry you are getting some snappy answers here.

From your posts here you sound like a thoughtful person with good intentions. I am really behind the general vision of 'the liberal democrats exist to build a free and fair society.'

Until a few months ago my reaction to this thread would have been pretty much the same as yours. I have come to realise it's a bit more complicated than that.

Sorry you have had some snappy answers here. Lots of people here are feeling scared and angry for various reasons, and there have been a lot of trolls recently.

There's trans rights in terms of those who have fully transitioned and have gender dysmorphia.

And there's those who are men who say they feel like women.

From what I'm learning, those who are fully understanding of 'women's rights' are now calling them selves Trans identifying males / men. A subset of men.

I'm going to wait a little longer and see how the GRA plays out for the Party , with specific regard to stats, sport etc. but I think I'm done with the LibDems now - after 32 years!

And you think the trolls are all on the Trans side?

The current frenzy being whipped up against "violent TRA's" couldn't possibly be yet another example of extremism? I know many trans people. I've never met one who presents as the much publicised TRA's on social media do. Exactly who is hijacking the argument here?

I had a conversation recently with a friend who knows Jo Swinson. My friend had tried engage her in a conversation about gender identity. Her view was that Swinson was totally clueless about the issues. Hadn’t given it a moment’s thought and just didn’t get it. Disappointing.

No.

There are some extremely fabulous trans people.

What worries me is the social media. For children and young adults, the media and social media are enormous influences. More than we know.

I've witnessed it in a child. In relation to gender (and many many more not in relation to gender.)

Political thought must be thought through carefully due to the wider implications further down the track.

That's interesting where.

That's honestly the opinion I got from looking through her twitter.

And how I was 2 years ago.

I'm sorry but that is bollocks. Jo Swinson is not clueless about anything. with possible excpetion of Harriet Harman she's done more for equality for women than any politician in this country - shared parental leave, flexible working, APPG on Body Image. Because of her (and Duncan Hames) the first baby to be carried through the voting lobbies in the HOC was in the arms of a man ffs.

When will you realise that women who believe that trans women are women and don't feel our rights are threatened by them are not stupid or uneducated. We get your concerns. We just think you are wrong.

I'm a woman btw. One born with a vagina. I have breasts, which I've used to feed my two children and I even gave up paid work to be at home with them after my career suffered because of parenting responsibilities. I've suffered sexual harassment and recently divorced a sexually abusive man. I have had my fair share of "women's issues" I just don't agree with you that allowing trans women to self identify is a significant one.

So can you tell us what a woman is then.

I'm a lib dem but their stance on gender puts me off being more involved

No I can't. Because I don't believe there is one definition of a woman. a probably have more in common with some men than I do with some women. I am not "a woman". I'm MrsMcGarry. I have some feminine characteristics and some masculine. I have breasts, but I don't have periods anymore.

I refuse to accept someone elses definition of me by virtue of my chromosomes or physical characteristics. I define me. I allow others to define themselves.

That doesn't mean I don't believe that there are issues which large subgroups of women suffer from which society needs to address. And I do wish that more feminists would make as much fuss about issues such as unequal pay, violence against women, toxic masculinity, and inequality in health care funding, all of which are far more injurous to women and society in general than transwomen

MrsMaGarry, I understand why you think it is insignificant. After all, the proportion of the population who will do this is fairly small though growing. However, the proportion of the population affected by men self IDing as women is approx 50%, and that 50% of the population will have fewer rights as a result.

Think sport, aws, as a start. It's very obvious that TIMs do better in women's sports than they do in men's.

Then think about the gatekeeping principle in safeguarding. If you do not have strong processes in place, predators target your system to abuse it. If predators can self ID as women when they wish to, then they will. In fact, it's fairly clear from the number of men transitioning in prisons that they already are.

It is t an insignificant problem.

If you don't know what a woman is Mrs McGarry, I can't see how you can claim to care about their unequal pay, violence against them and inequality in healthcare funding.

It seems like you, and every trans rights activist, are vehemently AGAINST the idea that the entire group of people born with XX chromosomes, ovaries, and unequal status should actually have a NAME with which to refer to themselves and their rights.

Which smells like misogyny to me, but hey.

If I'm wrong - do tell me what we should call that particular biological group?

Sorry this is just utterly ridiculous and you know it. How can we make a fuss about violence against women, equal pay etc. They don't exist because as you have just statef there is no such thing as a woman.